Situation Assessment (SAs) and Situation Awareness (SAw)

[TequilaChaser]

not sure why the instant blowup......but thought I would add to this thread topic.......

here is a link to a pdf file I worked up regarding Situational Awareness...hope it helps turn on the light bulb for someone.....

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/TequilaChaser_on_SituationalAwareness_SA101_rev2004.pdf

[Widewing]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great. Any way I find this community very snobish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat.  This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be. You been waiting how long for TOD? Six years, you will never see it. So all you snobs take tis game and shove it up your ass.

Ah, my reply is kinda short, so please excuse its brevity...

Just go away....

[Shane]

Every time I try to break down a film into the why of what I did (as opposed to how I did it), it just takes too long to put into words, lol.  And i'm lazy.

But I'll try to post an "SA" film and point out the actual SA assessments and responses I did. I have a few good 3-4 v me. Watching without commentary would still give you an indication of the decision process, tho' as you'll often see me switching targets, or using one to set up another.

My hatswitches wear out long before the trigger...

here's a sample insight (unfinished by far):

#24 Mixed wing (51/zeke) vs me.  09:29

Situation:  I'm engaging in a low alt high speed drag away from the main fight. The 51 and Zeke have comparable speeds to my La7, but slightly lower alt me due to their pursuit. The film begins with my reversal when they're about 3.5k out. I extended so far trying to see how well they were working together with the pursuit.   Both seemed intent on continuing pursuit - my priority concern was the zeke.

As I reverse back into the merge, between :05 and :15 I am making an assessment of the pair's relative postions. At 0:17-0:22 i merge w/zeke, keeping eye on the spraying 51. I continue with my zoom climb to see which might stall out first.  The zeke is still my priority target.

At 0:40 I roll over at the top and drop back down on the them as they also stall out. You'll notice I miss a very good opportunity to take out the pony (my gunnery sucks, which will be a recurring theme in my films). I clip the pony for some damage, an aileron I think. As I go down under the pony I, and look to my front right quarter I see the zeke  which cannot get his guns to bear as we fly past each other.  I am still trying to work a shot on the pony to see if I can get some breathing room to handle the zeke which comes by for yet another frontal pass. As the pony pulls off hoping I'd follow to set up the zeke, I decide to dive out gaining some speed and separation for another go. You'll notice I also extended opposite from the direction the pony was heading, further generating rapid separation.

As the Zeke lags in pursuit and the pony struggles to catch up, I keep watching the 51 to see what his intentions were. At first he was ropping further back, giving me pause while I kept watching for an opportunity to reverse.  Was the 51 staying slightly back hoping to jump me if I reversed the zeke?  (I generally try to keep a wing within 2k of each other, any further and it's a riskier decision to reverse into just 1 - which i often do anyway, lol.) You'll also notice I've gone into a slight climb, using the La7's advantge.

I continue my climbout, eventually steepening it to bleed a bit of speed so they could start to catch up with each other. I wanted them to closen up to make my impending reversal easier to assess.

Around 2:10 I reverse into the merge, my priority remains the zeke.I felt confident enough based on the 1st merge that the pony wasn't willing to turn hard, giving me an opportunity to knock out the zeke. I again do a rolling zoom climb to stall them out.

2:55 6 hits rake across the zeke's  engine to cockpit - killing his engine and wounding him, kocking him out of the fight. I'm also glad the pony couldn't aim very well. It was a calculated risk - he sprayed from range earlier, if you recall.

...... i might get off my lazy but and post the film as well...

[BaldEagl]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great. Any way I find this community very snobish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat.  This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be. You been waiting how long for TOD? Six years, you will never see it. So all you snobs take tis game and shove it up your ass.

Holy over-reaction Batman!

I was just asking how you could possibly know what another person is thinking.  Are you a mind reader?  If so you're not very good at it.  I'd keep my day job.

I'm sure you were just trying to be helpful and you brought up a good point but it's one that's wrapped into a much  larger context.  I didn't look at your link.  Did you assess how each and every plane matches up against each of the others?  Or how that changes with multiples?  Did you assess E states relative to aircraft strengths and weaknesses against what your in?  These assesments are only going to come with experience.  There's no way to chart this easily for n00bs.  There's no one size fits all.  Every engagement is different and unique unto itself.

I, for one, would hate to see you get all PO'd and go away but expect opposing opinions and critisizm on the BBs.  If you can't take that then do go away because we won't appreciate your PO'd PM's when you get killed in the arenas.

[The Fugitive]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great. Any way I find this community very snobish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat.  This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be. You been waiting how long for TOD? Six years, you will never see it. So all you snobs take tis game and shove it up your ass.

Sounds to me like someone is getting his butt handed to him in the MA's 

[SlapShot]

~S~ Every One
I see in some threads about Situation Awareness. This is good but there is more to it then just Situation Awareness. There is another factor that you people don't know about and that is Situation Assessment or as I call it (SAs). I written this a few ago back about 1999 when I was CO of the Virtual 332nd Fighter group back in he old CFS days and have upgraded threw the years. It has been posted in many web sites that are now gone. True I written it for IL2 1946 because there we have Full Real and Full Immersion with no Icons.
It holds true here too. So maybe they make this a sticky so every one can read it and study it and learn more about what Situation Assessment (SAs) and Situation Awareness (SAw) is all about. Here is the link to a training Manual I am redoing. True I am now a Bomber pilot  still even Bomber Pilots need to know about Situation Assessment (SAs) and
Situation Awareness (SAw).
http://virtual47thand312bgl.org/CONTENTS.html   Some of you old timers are thinking I know all this, that's good but you only think about Situation Awareness and not about Situation Assessment.  Take time to read it and learn it. However remember this is my material and if you want to copy it, ask my permission first.
Kabayo

I read your article ... it was just "OK".

I didn't think it was very well written and the grammar was poor at times, which further leads to explaining your child-like blow up in your next post.

If you have such an insight into SAs and SAw ... then why "True I am now a Bomber pilot" ... does your Tao on SAs and SAw not work for you here in a fighter plane ?

[Adonai]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great.

You did fine by breaking down SA and SAW however as previously said your SA and SAW assessment were "decent" at best written and for a new aviator would hardly understand all the gibbering. Please if your going to take some criticism to the extend to tell us to F off then perhaps don't post at all as nobody here disrespected you at all.

Any way I find this community very snobbish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat. 

Been around 11 years in online fighter Sims and this community has by far been better then any previous combat simulator I been apart of.
I go back when Dial up and flying Jane's fighters online was the fun stuff to do so I can say I've been around all communities in aviation and war games alike. Goals? Plenty of goals in taking bases, objectives you just don't see and are making snot comments.

This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946.

Actually Aces High is by far MORE realistic then IL2 1946. True IL2 doesn't have DAR, however DAR was available in WW2 and perhaps why added here.
IL-2 however is hardly realistic as far as flight models are concerned. That has been argued over 1000 times on IL-2 BBS's and never fixed in any patches except a few Mods which hardly 2% of the entire community played.


Honestly it sounds like you walked in here acting like you know it all which your experience and knowledge would be a great assest, but your choice of words tells me you sound more like just another 12 yr old that read a few books and took few criticized comments to heart.

[Solar10]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great. Any way I find this community very snobish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat.  This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be. You been waiting how long for TOD? Six years, you will never see it. So all you snobs take tis game and shove it up your ass.

Well that went well. 

[EskimoJoe]

I was just trying to be helpful here as there are a lot of new guys that come and try the game. But it seems that it don't pay to try to be helpful. So I guess I just don't say anything and just let you snobs think you are so f__k great. Any way I find this community very snobish and very unwelcome to new people here. So take this inferior game and shove it.  This game is like Warbirds any way, very arcade type with no goals, except to be a bunch of snobs and donut holes, who think you are the greatest virtual pilots ever to play virtual air combat.  This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be. You been waiting how long for TOD? Six years, you will never see it. So all you snobs take tis game and shove it up your ass.

Lies! Deceit! Blasphemy! Ban!


 

[EskimoJoe]

Honestly it sounds like you walked in here acting like you know it all which your experience and knowledge would be a great assest, but your choice of words tells me you sound more like just another 12 yr old that read a few books and took few criticized comments to heart.

                       

[BnZ]

This game will never be or ever come close to the full realism or full immersions like IL2 1946. You all need Icons and maps and dar or hide in the tower to show you were the enemy plane is. You have to camp out in your little tanks and AA to make your kills. True we don't have ship or tanks or all this other crap. IL2 1946 will always be a very much better Air Combat Flight Sim then AH2 will or ever think to be.

Troll...

For those that don't, the game on these "realistic" IL2 servers he speaks of consists almost entirely of whoever is lucky enough to spot the other semi-invisible dot first after 20 minutes of flying making a surprise bnz bounce on an unsuspecting target. And then 20 more minutes of boring flying trying to spot another invisible dot. This is realistic I suppose. This is also almost all that CAN be done in Il2, since the game's crappy viewing/gunnery system just about precludes any dogfighting.

IL2 is a game where the viewing system is deliberately made abominable (probably to force you to buy TrackIR), where the aircraft have constant nose-bounce for no apparent reason (I have no explanation for this, other than inability to code a good FM), and where .50 cals are slightly less effective than urinating on your foe's airplane. (All guns are semi-impotent in IL2-on so called "realistic" gunnery settings, 20mm cannons are slightly less accurate than smoothbore muskets and every enemy plane is as tough as Robert Johnson's P-47). Its designers is apparently ignorant of a myriad of details about real-world aircraft, such as: Many of them had more (or fewer) flap settings than 3. The aft tank in a P-51 was burned first (not last). (And there is no way to switch the tank you burn in any A/C...another bizarre fly in the "realism" ointment)

Il2 is perhaps superior in one or two areas...those are that aircraft actually seem to be effected by high airspeeds, whereas in AHII planes have to be going INSANELY fast to show any control stiffness or structural damage at all, even those that historically had high speed problems. And the engine torque is perhaps more realistic in Il2.

The complex engine management is a joke. Great in theory, in practice it is buggy and gets "gamed" in ways that bear no resemblance to historical power setttings. AHII engine management is not absolutely true-to-life in every respect (chiefly, you can't run out of water on water-injection systems) but it cannot be "gamed".

And if you think that no-icons is realistic in a sim given the level of detail that can be shown on a monitor, you are completely wrong. No-Icons mode in a flight sim is basically "Air warfare with legally blind pilots". I can easily distinguish between a Cessna and a Mooney on the threshold of a runway +6000 feet away, I can't distinguish between a 109 and P-47 at 600 yards on a computer screen sans icons.

[lengro]

BnZ, thanks for a good post - I've only tried IL2 a little and only offline.
One thing though - TrackIR doesn't add much to IL2 since they only support 2 DOF - you can't lean forward/backward, side-to-side or up/down as in AH.

[goober69]

Troll...

For those that don't, the game on these "realistic" IL2 servers he speaks of consists almost entirely of whoever is lucky enough to spot the other semi-invisible dot first after 20 minutes of flying making a surprise bnz bounce on an unsuspecting target. And then 20 more minutes of boring flying trying to spot another invisible dot. This is realistic I suppose. This is also almost all that CAN be done in Il2, since the game's crappy viewing/gunnery system just about precludes any dogfighting.

IL2 is a game where the viewing system is deliberately made abominable (probably to force you to buy TrackIR), where the aircraft have constant nose-bounce for no apparent reason (I have no explanation for this, other than inability to code a good FM), and where .50 cals are slightly less effective than urinating on your foe's airplane. (All guns are semi-impotent in IL2-on so called "realistic" gunnery settings, 20mm cannons are slightly less accurate than smoothbore muskets and every enemy plane is as tough as Robert Johnson's P-47). Its designers is apparently ignorant of a myriad of details about real-world aircraft, such as: Many of them had more (or fewer) flap settings than 3. The aft tank in a P-51 was burned first (not last). (And there is no way to switch the tank you burn in any A/C...another bizarre fly in the "realism" ointment)

Il2 is perhaps superior in one or two areas...those are that aircraft actually seem to be effected by high airspeeds, whereas in AHII planes have to be going INSANELY fast to show any control stiffness or structural damage at all, even those that historically had high speed problems. And the engine torque is perhaps more realistic in Il2.

The complex engine management is a joke. Great in theory, in practice it is buggy and gets "gamed" in ways that bear no resemblance to historical power setttings. AHII engine management is not absolutely true-to-life in every respect (chiefly, you can't run out of water on water-injection systems) but it cannot be "gamed".

And if you think that no-icons is realistic in a sim given the level of detail that can be shown on a monitor, you are completely wrong. No-Icons mode in a flight sim is basically "Air warfare with legally blind pilots". I can easily distinguish between a Cessna and a Mooney on the threshold of a runway +6000 feet away, I can't distinguish between a 109 and P-47 at 600 yards on a computer screen sans icons.

well not so surprisingly i tend to agree with bnz a lot.
i would rather have this game the way it is now, than most anyother game. IMHO the only thing other games really have better is graphic quality./   but still eye candy aint all a game is about. and im glad that AH2's developers and team see fit to keep the games requirements within reach of us poor mere mortals on a budget.

i will say that no icons might work.  if you have a big screen tv runing an insane resolutions.
sometimes i try no icons just for fun it totaly sucks.    no icons and no radar and we could fly for four hours without ever seeing an enemey:d  i might as well play FSX if i wanna sight see.

[CAP1]

To me, they both go hand in hand and I don't consider them two seperate things.  You can't properly assess the situation if you're not aware of what's going on around you.  Both skills are vital for proper fight management.


ack-ack

i think what he was gettng at was what happens when you first spot a bogie. you look around, decide if you have a good enough advantage for the fight, make sure there's no friendlies for him to drag ya to, etc.

then once you're in the fight, the situation assesment goes out the window. at that point it's just situatiopn awareness.

i think

[CAP1]

No doubt that is why most new beginners find the game to frustrating, must be even at all times, if you cant assess the situation you pretty much get killed from what you don't see. To many new players simply "dive in" a situation without an exit plan and wonder why it fails so often.

i always have an exit plan. it's called augering a hole all the way to china