Run your car on water??????

[Elfie]

Shortening the explosion (really improper term it's burning not detonating in a normally operating engine) in an engine has deleterious effects on the engine. That's why when you have detonation going on you are destroying the engine not making it run better. Detonation ruins the piston and valve assembly making "bad things" happen inside the block. If you are going to change the burn rate of the fuel you'll also have to change the point of time in the cycle when the ignition takes place. Having it detonate (not burn but actually detonate) BTDC would cause a lot of strain on the engine's components and or make the engine run backwards.

Detonation is VERY bad for an internal combustion engine....


As far as when you initiate the fuel burn, I'll defer to Hornet, but I think it will have to remain at the same timing, just after TDC to force the piston down for the power stroke.

[CAP1]

Detonation is VERY bad for an internal combustion engine....


As far as when you initiate the fuel burn, I'll defer to Hornet, but I think it will have to remain at the same timing, just after TDC to force the piston down for the power stroke.

most engines fire of the initial spark at anywhere from 0 BTDC to 30 BTDC, depending on conditions.

5.0L fords idle at a mechanical 10 degrees BTDC, and with the computer controlling it, it's 20 BTDC.

i set my older cars by total timing as opposed to idle.  i run the engine to 2500 rpm. full advance should be in by then. i set my fords to 30 to 35 BTDC.

 the shop race car was kept back at 30 degrees total. she ran 10.3's all night like that. we set her to 35 one weekend......dropped into the 9.9's.

 very few cars fire atc anymore.

[Holden McGroin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Holden, your math doesn't add up in the real world.

You make claims of revolutionary innovations, and then say, "You just have to put the math down and look at it from the practical aspect to understand it."

You want me to take it on faith, and cannot back it up with sound physics. If you cannot explain it mathematically your chance at the Nobel is poor.  

[Nashwan]

The booster is NO DIFFERENT than hooking up a radio amplifier, CB, fog lamps, or any other after market high power electrical device in your car, and all those draw anywhere from 10-40 amps depending on what it is.

I agree.

Do those items create a huge loss in gas mileage?

No. They do use more fuel, though.

I'm not arguing it's a huge difference. In fact, convert the amps in to power and it becomes clear. 15 amps at 12 volts is 180 watts. 180 watts is 0.24 horsepower.

Of course you need a bit more than that because the alternator is not 100% efficient, but 15 amps works out to about 0.3 horsepower.

Obviously 0.3 horsepower isn't going to make a "huge" difference to your fuel consumption. It will make a difference, though. TANSTAAFL

NO because the alternator is designed to handle those current loads without affecting the load on the engine itself.

No, the alternator is designed to take power from the engine to produce electricity. The more electricity you produce, the more power it takes from the engine, and the more fuel you burn. That's why BMW have introduced their regenerative breaking for cars, and why some manufacturers are looking at using heat from the exhaust to provide electric power.

So with no real engine load to worry about I can hook my booster up, draw 20 amps of available power and create HHO gas with it.

Certainly. Almost all cars will have enough spare alternator capacity to add another 20 amp load.

That gets dumped into the air intake of the engine and binds with the fuel/air mixture and makes the fuel burn at a higher temp and with a faster flame front which gives a more complete burn of the fuel resulting in a harder power stroke ie increased horsepower, less heat transfer to the engine block due to the faster burn rate, thus increasing overall engine efficiency and using less fuel to maintain the same power and RPM's of the engine.

I'd rate that as possible but unlikely. The reason is the same reason it won't make a huge difference to fuel consumption to generate the electricity in the first place.

If you get 20 mpg at 60 mph, a vehicle is using about 12 litres an hour. That's about 8.8 kg of gasoline.

If you are generating 1 litre of hydrogen (forget about the oxygen, that's free in the air anyway) a minute, that's 0.09 grammes of hydrogen a minute, or about 5.5 g an hour. For every gramme of hydrogen you put in your engine, you are putting in about 1,600 grammes of gasoline.

I just can't see such a tiny amount of hydrogen having any effect, even if hydrogen in quantity could do what is claimed for it.

[CAP1]

I am a mechanical engineer and understand basic thermodynamics.
. 
 

THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!


unlearnsome of what you learned, and you'll understand it better. your mind's been contaminated through your learning.

[Elfie]

most engines fire of the initial spark at anywhere from 0 BTDC to 30 BTDC, depending on conditions.

5.0L fords idle at a mechanical 10 degrees BTDC, and with the computer controlling it, it's 20 BTDC.

i set my older cars by total timing as opposed to idle.  i run the engine to 2500 rpm. full advance should be in by then. i set my fords to 30 to 35 BTDC.

 the shop race car was kept back at 30 degrees total. she ran 10.3's all night like that. we set her to 35 one weekend......dropped into the 9.9's.

 very few cars fire atc anymore.

It's been a long time since I worked on an engine and used a timing light. This jogged my memory, you are correct, it is BTDC, not just after. 

[Holden McGroin]

No a 200 watt amplifier typicaly requires about 15-20 amps at 12 volts DC of power from the elctrical system to operate. That power draw doesn't come close to the maximum available power the alternator is capable of generating when the engine is running either at idle or 5000 RPM (doesn't matter). The power requirments for those systems and the outputs of those systems, while tied together are NOT directly proportional. That's were your math is completly hosed up.

Yeah and a 350 HP ICE isn't always putting out 350 HP.  What is your point?

200W = 200W

Hows that for math?

a 15 W draw will require a 15 W draw from the engine.  

How's that foir math?

You need to come up with a reason for the HHO working that is better than the reality I have shown you.

[Holden McGroin]

THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!


unlearnsome of what you learned, and you'll understand it better. your mind's been contaminated through your learning.

Another way of saying ignorance is bliss, eh?

[CAP1]

Assuming you understand how a 4 stroke combustion engine works does it not make sense that a longer power stroke is derived from a quicker burn of the fuel.  I'll try that another way.  Petrol goes phuuuut but hydrogen + petrol goes bang.  Or another way.  Normal fuels go into ignition a good bit before TDC.  A backwards force is exerted against the piston crown creating friction and heat until it goes past TDC.  Then the "Continuing" explotion turns into work a good bit past TDC when the explosion has finished.   Now shorten the explotion cycle and you have less backward force less friction and a longer power stroke because the fuel has been converted to WORK QUICKER.

actually the reason that the ignition system fires the plugs BTDC is due to the pisotns speed. when you're winding the engine up, and the plugs are firing off at 30 BTDC, by the tijme the flame front has started, the piston is at TDC. as it gets there, the flame front is expanding, and forcing the piston back down. it never puts any downward force on the piston before TDC. if it did, the engine wouldn;t run.

[CAP1]

A 200 W stereo system will require 200 W be produced bt the engine above that which is being used to move the automobile.  At typical efficiencies, this mean about a 1 hp equivalent increase in fuel burn. (Measured at the gas tank.)

Math is pure logic.  You ask me to abandon logic to understand.  I cannot do that.  All of my understanding of the way things work comes from logic.

i'll tell ya what.

you come  to my shop. you go out in the bays and fix some of these "excellently" engineered vehicles. use your pure logic to figure out what's wrong. use your pure logic to figure out how to get at things that engineers believe will never ever break.

 then go and un-learn some of what you;ve learned. you'll be much better off.

[Bones]

actually the reason that the ignition system fires the plugs BTDC is due to the pisotns speed. when you're winding the engine up, and the plugs are firing off at 30 BTDC, by the tijme the flame front has started, the piston is at TDC. as it gets there, the flame front is expanding, and forcing the piston back down. it never puts any downward force on the piston before TDC. if it did, the engine wouldn;t run.

Right.  That does bring up a thought.

When you introduce hydrogen into the equation, the timing will have to change.  The flame propagation with hydrogen introduced into the mix is significantly faster than with pure gasoline.  With stock timing, I could see some serious pre-ignition problems.

[CAP1]

You make claims of revolutionary innovations, and then say, "You just have to put the math down and look at it from the practical aspect to assume it can never work."

You want me to take it on faith, and cannot back it up with sound physics. If you cannot explain it mathematically your chance at the Nobel is poor.  

i corrected your first statement for ya.

got a question for ya?

 can you please use your mathmatics and explain how a bumblebee can fly?

[CAP1]

Another way of saying ignorance is bliss, eh?

nope,
rather another way of reminding you of all of the "impossible" things that are possible today

[Holden McGroin]

i'll tell ya what.

you come  to my shop. you go out in the bays and fix some of these "excellently" engineered vehicles. use your pure logic to figure out what's wrong. use your pure logic to figure out how to get at things that engineers believe will never ever break.

 then go and un-learn some of what you;ve learned. you'll be much better off.

I'll use logic and you don't use logic and we will see who fixes things first.

There are people who do things excellently and there are those who do things haphazardly: engineers, doctors, poets, starbuck baristas.

The quality of anything is based on the quality of the individual who does it, not the science or art behind it.

[Holden McGroin]

i corrected your first statement for ya.

got a question for ya?

 can you please use your mathmatics and explain how a bumblebee can fly?

yes.  Power + lift > weight + drag.  Quite simple really. There are some constants left out for simplicity.