Author Topic: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"  (Read 2152 times)

Offline 999000

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2008, 05:01:12 PM »
Divine grace is the reconciliation of mortal souls with the divine. 

All mortal beings are intrinsically flawed simply by virtue of the fact that they are subject to the vagaries and temptations of corporeal existence. Through the unavoidable manifestation of these flaws during the course of mortal life a chasm develops separating the individual's soul from the spiritual resonance of the universe. Divine grace is the spiritual "tuning fork" that brings back into harmony the divine consciousness and the soul of a sentient being. Once resonance of spiritual essence is reconciled that soul is considered living in "Divine grace", a state that continues into the afterlife. The central concept of Divine grace is that it is unconditional. Individual souls are not necessarily bound by any requirements. It is a gift from God, the reasons for bestowment known only to him.

Zazen13, and people were excited by an HO
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Offline meddog

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2008, 11:42:16 PM »
And thread stalkers are like spawncampers, content to take cheap potshots from the woods at brave souls with enough moxie to "hang it out there" for the sake of entertainment and fun even if at their own expense... ;)

Just ignore them zaz they wouldn't know grace if she spread her legs for them. :rock :aok :salute
Yes I know I suck, other wise youuuuu would be dead so stop bragging.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2008, 12:17:04 AM »
Just ignore them zaz they wouldn't know grace if she spread her legs for them. :rock :aok :salute

Haha Thanks for that meddog, I needed a good chuckle... :rofl
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2008, 01:22:27 AM »
Zazen13, and people were excited by an HO
<S>999000

Yup, it's easy to get distracted by the flotsam of life. The more you dwell on it the more importance you give it psychologically. Whenever I find myself doing that I will clear my mind of all thoughts and meditate/pray for a long time. Then, refreshed,  like a clean slate I am ready to reengage those in-love with the agonizingly, pitiful minutia of the cartoon world.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 01:26:05 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Bubbajj

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2008, 04:26:01 AM »
Your original definition very much resembles Buddhism in that Buddhists seek to reach enlightenment ("grace"?), in the end, through the elimination of conflict. However, your original treatise suggest that grace, as you've defined it, cannot be "attained". If this is the case, do we engage in a futile pursuit of the unattainable or do we merely strive to recognize the virtues of true grace and accept that we will allways fall short? As stated, there can be no grace as there is no way to attain it.

The Buddhist tradition allows that one can reach enlightenment by the expressed and dedicated application of will to overcome worldly distractions. One would think that the first step toward "attaining" grace would be the recognition that there is a higher order and a personal commitment to values and deeds that lend themselves to attaining this perfectly integrated state. I believe that grace, as you've defined, can be attained through the correct application of priciples bound by the theory that there is a higher order and it can be achieved.

Your theory of Grace is convincing but I believe it is flawed on this one point. It would, of course, be helpful to know which definition of grace was desired as there are others beyond what has been discussed here.

Offline SD67

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2008, 06:18:51 AM »
Thanks Pipz. I remember one of those famous posts where I did that. The strangest thing happened right after I posted it. The ability to break down statistics by country was suddenly and inexplicably removed from the game, never to return...;)
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Offline DDogs98

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2008, 08:30:33 AM »
A graceful person would work in the soup kitchen and never say a word about it.

Certainly the left hand should not know what the right hand is doing.  True grace does not anticipate or expect grace (or any other reward) in return.  The act of grace is reward in itself.  Anything beyond that is gravy, to coin a phrase.  But you cannot deny that an act of grace 'feels good'.  But that good feeling and the act behind it should not be shared outside of philosophical discussions (such as this one).  I gave a personal example when I should have used a general one.  Thanks for pointing that out.  It helps me on my journey.

The philosophical notion of a society operating on grace is compelling indeed. We are spiritual beings, and the ideal of grace is acted out despite the mores and false dicta that the world operates on.  A soldier who smothers a grenade to prevent injuries to his fellow soldiers is an outstanding example and much documented.  Those that dive back into an impossible fight, just to save an often anonymous teammate are exihibiting grace...whether they mean to or not.

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2008, 01:52:28 PM »
Your original definition very much resembles Buddhism in that Buddhists seek to reach enlightenment ("grace"?), in the end, through the elimination of conflict. However, your original treatise suggest that grace, as you've defined it, cannot be "attained". If this is the case, do we engage in a futile pursuit of the unattainable or do we merely strive to recognize the virtues of true grace and accept that we will allways fall short? As stated, there can be no grace as there is no way to attain it.

The Buddhist tradition allows that one can reach enlightenment by the expressed and dedicated application of will to overcome worldly distractions. One would think that the first step toward "attaining" grace would be the recognition that there is a higher order and a personal commitment to values and deeds that lend themselves to attaining this perfectly integrated state. I believe that grace, as you've defined, can be attained through the correct application of priciples bound by the theory that there is a higher order and it can be achieved.

Your theory of Grace is convincing but I believe it is flawed on this one point. It would, of course, be helpful to know which definition of grace was desired as there are others beyond what has been discussed here.

I like how you are thinking. I was trying to keep this out of the religious context as much as possible. I think some may confuse my original definition of grace with that of divine grace later in the thread. They are actually quite distinct in that grace is conditional and temporary, divine grace is a permanent unconditional bestowment from God. Also, divine grace deals specifically with the Christian view of spirituality although other religions have similar concepts. Grace can exist with no overtly spiritual connotation whatsoever.

There is a difference between the concept of enlightenment and perfect enlightenment which is also known as Nirvana. A sentient being can be temporarily enlightened but perfect enlightenment is forever and inheritantly, permanently transformative. Attaining perfect enlightenment is technically impossible for a human being because the precise instant it happens your mind ceases to be human. Your mind instantly evolves and in doing so is liberated from the cycle of cause and effect.

An enlightenment experience on the other hand is a state of mind attainable by human beings. It is a point at which your mind is in harmony with the universe, at that point there is no "gap" or interface between the two. It can last for a second a week or more. But, eventually the mind reverts to the unenlightened state. It's like trying to ride a bolt of white lightning, at some point you become "self-conscious" and in doing so develop a relativistic view, "I am riding the white lightning! I am enlightened!", once you do that you've created the symbolic self-perception in your mind of separation between your experience and your conscious awareness and are by definition no longer in an enlightened state.

So, if you want to take my definition of grace and conceive of it as enlightenment that is ok, but not necessary or entirely accurate. Just like enlightenment, as it is conditional, grace is potentially temporary. Grace can apply to any action of anything, not even necessarily a living thing. In contrast, non-sentient and non-living things cannot be enlightened. Grace is an active principle, elightenment can be active or passive. You can do something in an enlightened fashion, but you can also just "be" enlightened as it is simply a state of mind. You can do something gracefully, but you can't just be graceful without being in action. A state of mind akin to enlightenment is possible, but without an active interaction of the mind or body with the physical universe it is not actually the act of "being" graceful.... The natural world abounds with grace as there is no mind to interfere and cause to be seperate the harmonious will of the universe and the action of the object. For example...

A star moves around the center of its galaxy with luminously majestic grace.

Or

The mountain peaks of the Himalayas rise with graceful authority over the clouded sky below.


Individuals and even animals can demonstrate grace conditionally and temporarily. For example...

The cheetah raced across the grassy plain with gracefully fluid strides.

Or

Even though he lost the race the 3rd place finisher of the 100 meters demonstrated the grace of a champion even in defeat.


As you can see by these examples, grace can come and go, it is an often temporary synchronization of the entity with the universe. It is always by accident, you can't be graceful on purpose. It's like looking at yourself in 3rd person riding the white lightning, the moment you do it you are no longer "being" graceful. You've now created a sense of separation in your mind  between the experience itself and your conscious awareness, thereby creating subjectivity. For example, I am a graceful pool player, I play fluidly, my mind is one with the experience, there's no I or opponent or insinuation of me doing anything to something in my mind, I just play. But, although I've never actually tried, I highly doubt I could be an equally graceful ballet dancer.

The state of mind of grace is a conditional and active principle, not passive or necessarily all pervasive and eternal.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 04:12:11 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline John Curnutte

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2008, 02:53:01 PM »
Love it Zazen  and it is very agreeable with things in life , there are always those that seem to walk about an 1" off the floor . For me when devilish actions I had performed caused me hard times , it was percieved by me to be bad luck . In reality if I behave as a good normal human being , my life is golden and I walk an 1" off the floor . Call this my Zaz if you will or chi or whatever but love this post .
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Offline FireDragon

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2008, 03:32:19 PM »
I thought Grace was when someone HO's you and you Don't shoot back with you typhy :devil

Offline 999000

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2008, 03:54:16 PM »
Zazen13 and bubbjja,  I enjoy the different facets and discussion of "grace" .....With the Olympics coming up.. my understanding  is that some Athletes of the highest level cognitive ....have adopted some  of the  ancient eastern  teachings  of "Samari warriors" who develop peerformances of the highest nature through enlightement?...
This is a very crude introduction .....
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2008, 11:47:19 PM »
"if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable."

"Sentient beings are the means by which the Universe experiences itself.."
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:55:56 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline SD67

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2008, 03:27:14 AM »
The universe is only here because we imagined it so, it expands at the same rate as our consciousness of it. If we think, it is becomes so.
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Offline DrDea

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2008, 04:38:15 AM »
 Thats some very nice circumlocution. :salute
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Zazen13 please explain "Grace"
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2008, 07:46:15 AM »
The universe is only here because we imagined it so, it expands at the same rate as our consciousness of it. If we think, it is becomes so.

That's actualy pretty good. Kind of like would a falling tree in the forest make a noise if there was no one to hear it. Would the Universe exist if there were no conscious beings to perceive and experience it. I like your Zen.. :aok
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc