Riding in stall turns.

[Yenny]

in stall fighting, if the opponent is just doing a flat turn and you're also trying to flap turn with him because you're right on his six. Is it better to engage wep, full flaps and ride edge of the stall? We're not talking about any other maneuver just flat turning.

[Delirium]

(don't make me regret this)

It really depends on other circumstances, are you in a 109k that has the E but you can't get your nose around? If so, a hi yo-yo/ lag displaced roll would be a better alternative.

Frankly, unless your turn rate/turn radius is better than other guy's, you should lose the fight.

It is alot like the way I handle zeros in my P38, I force them nose low on the merge to increase their G loading/increase the size of their turn circle, and I use the vertical to get my nose around faster. That said, if I can't get the vertical seperation I know I have 1-2 mindless revolutions before that zeke will have me.

[SlapShot]

Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.

In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.

If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.

[TequilaChaser]

in stall fighting, if the opponent is just doing a flat turn and you're also trying to flap turn with him because you're right on his six. Is it better to engage wep, full flaps and ride edge of the stall? We're not talking about any other maneuver just flat turning.

as others said, it all depends on the circumstances.....

if you find yourself starting to "Flat Turn" with your opponent, stay with it only if you are gaining on your opponent.if you are at a stalemate, or fidn yourself starting to lose ground in the angles area, then you need to reassess and try a different approach ie....start high yo-yo ing to change up the turnrate or possibly try a low- yoy to gain some speed and cut the corner......

if you still can not gain angles, it is time to look for an exit strategy to break off and reset the fight......

depending on what speed you are flying/turning at, will dictate if you are at or near your corner speed  or if you are at or close to your sustained turn speed best for the particular plane you are in


edit: btw....this is not considered stall fighting..this is called yank and bank 

[Yenny]

Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.

In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.

If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.

I mean if you're otd riding 90 knts scrimming the surface.

[TequilaChaser]

I mean if you're otd riding 90 knts scrimming the surface.

as others said, it all depends on the circumstances.....

if you find yourself starting to "Flat Turn" with your opponent, stay with it only if you are gaining on your opponent.if you are at a stalemate, or fidn yourself starting to lose ground in the angles area, then you need to reassess and try a different approach ie....start high yo-yo ing to change up the turnrate or possibly try a low- yoy to gain some speed and cut the corner......

if you still can not gain angles, it is time to look for an exit strategy to break off and reset the fight......

depending on what speed you are flying/turning at, will dictate if you are at or near your corner speed  or if you are at or close to your sustained turn speed best for the particular plane you are in


edit: btw....this is not considered stall fighting..this is called yank and bank 

the same still applys.........regardless if you on the deck or at 10K alt or 20K alt........ and as Slapshot also mentioned, yes sometimes depending on the circumstances you might need to back off the throttle or turn off the wep to tighten up the turn..... or even drop the flaps ( what ever is needed to get the angles advantage )

again.if you find yourself not able to gain any angles or start to lose angles then exit the fight and extend and re-merge

[CAP1]

Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.

In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.

If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.

i've found this to be true in the f6f and the 38. on occasion, if i'm nearly at a point to fire off a burst, if i drop throttle somewhat, the nose seems to come round quickly.....but only for a second or so, then i need to throttle back up.
 i also find this to work well in the zekes, hurris, and spits.

 but on his question, if i can't get a gun solution in a flat turn, i kick a slight amount of top rudder, and climb ever so slowly. ths seems to not affect my ability to keep him nearly in my sights, and it doesn't seem to bleed too much extra speed(especialy with WEP). i get a few hundred feet, and drop the nose. the increased speed lets me get inside.
 if i miss, i go below slightly, and hopefully get another shot on the way back up.

[BaldEagl]

I've tried everything in this situation (WEP on, WEP off, flaps in, flaps out, etc.) and it seems to be plane/match-up dependent but as a general rule flaps in, WEP off, riding the front end of the buffet seems to be a good universal starting point to maximze turn rate then adjust from there.

[CAP1]

I've tried everything in this situation (WEP on, WEP off, flaps in, flaps out, etc.) and it seems to be plane/match-up dependent but as a general rule flaps in, WEP off, riding the front end of the buffet seems to be a good universal starting point to maximze turn rate then adjust from there.

i can do that in thew easy planes...the hurris the spits, zekes, hellkitty.   i was trying to stall fight in TA in an f4u1c. i met the trees, the grass, the dirt, pretty much everything that can really ruin a good fight

[Agent360]

If you are talking about the 109k4 specifically then it is a fact that this plane can perform a constant E flat turn with all 4 flaps out and wep on. I have personally run down every plane in ah2 flying like this. The k4's power can simply muscle it around and maintain a constant airspeed of about 60 to 80 mph. I am not aware of any other plane that can perform a no altitude loss, constant air speed pure flat turn.
All the other planes will loose altitude during the flat turn but the k4 can keep its altitude in the turn without loosing it. You also need to tap the top rudder some to keep the nose stable but be very delicate with this or it will cause you rapid loss of air speed and you will drop out of the sky.

This particlular situation usually develops after you have successfully gained their six and are going to shoot them. Or they just cant get away because you are close but no guns. Typically the target will go into a simple flat turn in an attempt to out turn you or force you off their six by gaining angles.

I will only do this when I have basicly caught them. I have turned angles and run them out of energy. They are trapped by the deck and can only turn flat. Spit's for example just dont have enough power to get their nose up once the get very slow and if they did it would be a gun solution so the only option is a flat turn hoping to escape.

I must stress that the target must be out of energy and using flaps. IF they can strainten out and keep their distance and then start using the energy to make higher speed turns then you should not follow.

I often choose to follow into the flat turn at stalling speeds because I do not want them to gain any seperation, I am very close (200 or closer) and I sense they are about to stall out themselves. Often I can stay behind them like this until the stall and hit the ground or just loose so much E and can not sustain the turn and straiten out....then it's an easy tater shot.

There is a "magic spot" so to speak in the K4 where you can fly like this and have complete control. It is a combonation of aileron, elevator, rudder and throttle all working together while pulling maximum angle of attack.

Disclaimer: attempting to get guns chasing a better turn rate plane in a k4 like this will likly get you killed. It is not the smartest choice especially if you have other options like an exit or airspeed for a yo-yo. I am not recommending this as a regular tactic to employ. It is for very experienced k4 drivers who have perfected flying the plane at extremly slow speeds and have proficient skill in using the throttle and rudder.


Agent360

[Widewing]

Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.

In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.

If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.

The best cornering speed for the F6F is in the 235-240 mph range while clean. When turning hard with flaps out, you will never be able to get near that speed, especially in sustained turning. Reducing power in those circumstances will slow your turn rate and INCREASE your turn radius due to having less thrust to keep your nose up without reducing bank angle.

You can test this with a stopwatch. Using WEP and full flaps, establish the best turn you can, riding the stall horn. Time three complete turns and note your typical speed via E6B. Shut off WEP and time three more complete turns. Note the typical speed with E6B again. The reduction of speed and increase of time will be apparent.

Inasmuch as turn rate is often more important than turn radius, you will want all the power you have available.


My regards,

Widewing 

[Widewing]

If you are talking about the 109k4 specifically then it is a fact that this plane can perform a constant E flat turn with all 4 flaps out and wep on. I have personally run down every plane in ah2 flying like this. The k4's power can simply muscle it around and maintain a constant airspeed of about 60 to 80 mph. I am not aware of any other plane that can perform a no altitude loss, constant air speed pure flat turn.
All the other planes will loose altitude during the flat turn but the k4 can keep its altitude in the turn without loosing it. You also need to tap the top rudder some to keep the nose stable but be very delicate with this or it will cause you rapid loss of air speed and you will drop out of the sky.

Agent, I'm going to suggest that you try this offline, with E6B open the whole time. You will find that your air speed is much higher than 80 mph, probably in the range of 115 mph.

MA comparisons invariably are greatly effected by the inability of the vast majority of pilots to get the best turn performance out of their aircraft. If, for example, you are chasing a Spit8 which pulls into a constant left turn, but panics when the stall horn so much as hints at noise, you will out turn him every time.

However, if the Spit pilot is a good stick, he will reef the Spit around hard and turn on WEP. If you try to stay in that circle with a 109K-4, the Spit will fly around the circle and be on your six in less than 4 full turns.

I will also state that every other 109 will turn smaller circles than a K-4 and do it at lower speeds. Indeed, the 109G-2 doesn't need more than a notch or two of flaps to out-turn the K-4, even if the K-4 has full flaps out. That's in left-hand turns. In right-hand turns, the K-4 suffers worse from torque than the G-2 and it's even easier for the G-2 to gain on it.

Of course, seeing is believing, so stop by the TA any evening mid week (after 9 PM Eastern) and we can do a demonstration.

Where the 109s do well is in turn rate. An example is the 109F vs the F4U-1. The Corsair turns smaller circles, but the 109F has a faster turn rate and can hang onto the F4U like glue.

All of the above aside, whatever you are doing is obviously a great success, and nothing succeeds like success.


My regards,

Widewing

[goober69]

usualy especialy in spits when im turning against inferior planes i will pull jsut barely into buffet and then back off the turn a little and try to ride it as close as i can.

question though, when you get super slow in the spitfires does it help turn rate at all to use the single flap stage? normaly i only use them over the top or when roping.

or is it better to just conserve that E?

[Vudak]

Widewing, what where you saying in the TA a few weeks ago about how to get the best possible turn?  It had something to do with rudder input/lack of input...

It sounded interesting, but I had my stallhorn blaring while you were talking to that guy about it, and couldn't catch it all.  This seems like a pretty good time to ask for a refresher

[Widewing]

usualy especialy in spits when im turning against inferior planes i will pull jsut barely into buffet and then back off the turn a little and try to ride it as close as i can.

question though, when you get super slow in the spitfires does it help turn rate at all to use the single flap stage? normaly i only use them over the top or when roping.

or is it better to just conserve that E?

When it comes to getting to minimum turn radius, if you're plane is not shaking and the stall horn blaring, you not there....

Spitfire flaps do tighten turns, at the expense of eating up speed. You can using them to get an angle, but I would not keep them out for any longer than that. Also, flap use at high angles of attack increase the risk of the Spit entering a flat spin/stall that is very difficult to recover from if you are low. You best bet is to kill the engine (not just cut throttle), get the nose down and restart.


My regards,

Widewing