Another TnB 190 help topic.

[Yenny]

Hi all,

I've been having this huge urge to take 190 out for tnb actions. I tried it in MA but then I keep getting gangbang so I went to DA with some friends to practice. I can take the 190A5 in the vertical NP, vs almost anything but spit 16, 109K4 >. However, as soon as I turn the fight into the horizontal I literally just can't do anything. I mean I know the A5 can roll, and that and climbing rate are probably all it has vs other turns fighter. I was using rolling scissors and roll to the right on top of the loops forcing the spit to roll against its tork. I dunno if i'm doing it right, maybe I need to chop throttle and roll right also, because I usually roll right w/ full throttle.

Basically, I can't see or imagine how to take on turnfighters in 190 in a tnb fight. Well there's the vertical, usually works well but it takes a good long while and sometime people get mad at me for using the E fight, because prefer fighting in the horizontal where most slow turnfighter > a5 (O.o  I like how 200 scream can't fight to your plane advantage) Anyway I want to find a way to fight tnb plane with 190 at their horizontal games (Is it even possible, I dunno). I tried to look for some film of Nath using his 190 to tnb, but only found one. That one was nothing special in the tnb sense,  so it's hard to pick up pointer. I'm searching for "good" 190 advices on how to tnb em.

If anyone have Nath 190 tnb film please link it. 

This is a film of one of my DA practice 190 sortie today. The 1st 4 fights I mainly kept the fight in the vertical and did well against turnfighter. The last 2 min of the 4th fight, I decided to chop throttle tryin to slip into a horizontal fight I got slaughter. Which is usually how it looks when I try to take the fight in the horizontal.

My A5 vertical fight:

http://files.filefront.com/film131+14500ahf/;11408683;/fileinfo.html

Nath A8 film (only one I found)

http://www.mediafire.com/?tawa8caajpa

Thanks,
Yenny

[killnu]

I wouldnt turn much with more than one, 2 people tops around...otherwise expect the gangbang.   use your rudder to turn vice yanking back on stick.  I normally took 2x20mm in A8 (maybe he 4x20mm) and no more than 75% fuel.  I usually loaded 75, climbed to 8k and headed to fight.  I tried to keep speed up over 300, like most people do...but always ended up TnB with somebody on deck that I "shouldnt have".  One of my more memorable fights was with Bongo in his Yak...we was on the deck TnB in real close for about 5 minutes.  I had flaps out, chopping throttle, stalling, rolling...it was crazy.  finally got him.  I never made it home that run...I had damage and got caught trying to limp home.  what a fight though...one of those I really wish I had film running for. 

[BaldEagl]

You probably won't beat them in a pure horizontal fight.  You need to include at least some vertical elements but you still don't nessesarily have to extend further than 1-1.5K.  Pull up, roll and either reverse split S or wing-over.  As you're rolling at the top you'll also have the option to go to a rolling scissor.

If you're in a pure horizontal try dumping all three notches of flaps.  I had a great extended stall fight in an A8 against waystin in a F6F one night doing this (<S> waystin) although I had to extend and re-set three times.

I mostly fly the A8 with the big gun package and full fuel although It's been rare over the past couple of months.  I've t'n'b'd in it with Spits, F6F's, 109K-4's, and many others but if the other pilot knows what he's doing it's a tough road and one you'll not likely win.

The element of surprise when you start agressivly turn fighting someone with a 190 is what wins these fights, not the inate ability of the pilot or plane.  You need to make a call a couple of turns in as to the relative skill of your opponent, then either stay in or extend.

[Vudak]

Well, we were starting off right on the deck pretty much last night, and when you're forced to turnfight on the deck in a 190, you're pretty much in desperation mode with little room for error, or chance, really...

With some altitude below you, however, it can be a different story.  There, you can use more nose low turns and the vertical in both respects (up AND down) to keep your speed up so you can continue to maneuver with some authority...

If you want, I could pay you back for the overshot aim help by going to the dueling area in the TA where we can start our fights with some alt beneath us, and you can see the difference.

It's still a tough fight, but is certainly a lot of fun.

[trotter]

Vudak got it right. It's all about nose low turns and nose low manuevers (low yoyo, split S, etc). The 190, like any plane, can compete just dandy in the horizontal as long as its speed is within a certain range. Once the speed drops, you have to give up on flat turns, use nose low manuevers to "keep serve" in the fight, until your airspeed is high enough that you can use a few more offensive manuevers. Then dip down again for airspeed, and repeat.

As good as any 190 sticks may appear to be in TnB, I guarentee that they are not riding the buzzer and miraculously coming about, but are taking breaks from their offensive manuevers to use nose low neutral manuevers until they can go offensive again. Watch closely and that is what you will see.

[goober69]

i find sometimes that if im against a really agressive player who is yanking for all hes worth, i can sometimes back off on my turns a little bit to gain e on him. i fly a larger circle and try to make the circles look like a figure 8 on is side, SOMETIMES the circles will intersect and you can get either a front 1/4 snapshot or a rear aspect deflection as he pases your nose. of course i do this in 109's i dont know how it works in 190's.

i did fly an 190a5 last nigth i had the 4cannon package as i was bomber hunting in MW. i bounced an la5 that never saw me blew him away, and continued to dive on a 38. we were about 6k off the deck and i heard him drop his ord, after about three turns i put bullets right in his cockpit as he was rolling over.

of course from the way these guys were flying i was asuming that they were newer players, as there were very few people in the arena at that time.

[Yenny]

If you guys could, look at the film and tell me what i'm doing wrong w/ the A5. My vertical manuever are not smooth. I'm having problem leading my shot in A5 when it's below 400 knts 

[Urchin]

The 190s were nuetered pretty hard in the transition from AH1 to AH2.  The cockpit bars are gigantic, which makes keeping track of your opponent difficult.  This makes hitting snapshots extraordinarily difficult... and that is about the only kind of shot you are going to get in a 190.  Also, all of the 190s turn considerably worse than they did in AH1 (and they weren't exactly nimble even back in those days).

[abc123]

Yenny, this might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it has elements in it, and I think it's something you'd like to look at.  You can see that from the beginning I'm at a pretty substantial E and alt disadvantage.  As the 205 begins his attacks, I use the 'horizontal' (by the way we really shouldn't be referring to things as horizontal or vert. as it's 99.9 percent of the time interconnected) to pull a guns defense and then reverse back into him, using careful throttle management.  Then, he pulls into the vert/ straight up and reverses back down onto me.  This is where I decide to take the fight into the vert as I know now he has made a big mistake.  He's going to lose almost all the advantage he had over me once I complete the vertical reversal.  You can see me start to set him up for a vert reversal.  Once it's started and the fights going up he's (as you know, fighting my fight).  It then is only a matter of time until I get behind him and kill him.

190D_205.ahf:
http://files.filefront.com/190D+205ahf/;11503508;/

In all, it takes me about a minute and a half to go from being totally defensive, to on his six and getting the kill shot.  I guess the moral of the story is don't just think of fights in terms of just vert or horizontal.  Covert from one to the other as needed.  You also can't be afraid to die.  It's the only way to learn and get better, and you WILL get better!  You have to put yourself in every possible situation so that you know you limitations for that particular situation.  Think of it like investing for your future.  All of the deaths that you 'invest' pushing the limits and learning will eventually pay you back so much that you won't know what to spend all that ACM on!   You'll know when you come across a truly great E fighter (which is really just someone who transitions from 'horizontal maneuver to vertical maneuvers while keeping an E differential between them and their opponent that they can then exploit to they're advantage).  They're not the ones who can high yo yo and immel all day staying 800 out until they can finally loop behind you while you're to slow to pull up into them.  Actually it's quite the opposite.  They're the ones that will keep you so close that you can have a staring contest, yet having you thinking that extra foot you need to pull for the shot seems like it's a mile.

[BaldEagl]

I took an A8 out for a spin yesterday and was reminded that once you get it behind someone there is virtually no escape for them.

As long as you're not too close any defensive manouver can be countered with a quick roll into their flight path for a snapshot.  This actually minimizes the turning required.

Of course you have to be good at snapshots and deflection shooting but it only takes one or two 30mm's to finish the job.

I fought an F4U (snapshot kill), a Typh (a draw and both of us withdrew), a P-38 (killed by a countryman), a Dora (who I killed from his six as he tried to run) and a Spit (who I eventally HO'd) yesterday.  In each case these were turning contests that mostly went several rounds but in each case I held speed/E throughout, never sounding the stall buzzer.  I also killed a B-26 and got assists on two others.  All of this on one sortie.

Now I remember why I love the A8 so much.  It is an awsome airplane.

[Urchin]

I'll try to post some files of me fighting in a 190A-5. 

I don't usually film my sorties, but I'll make an effort to do it.  Granted ,this will be at furball lake in the DA, where I have heard the pilots suck even worse than in the MAs (I don't believe it though).

[ink]

each plane has its strengths and weaknesses, use the planes strengths to your advantage, not your opponents, if you are in a 190 ECT, BnZ, if you are in a spit,ECT,  TnB

it seems kinda silly to help your nme out by making it easier to kill you.

if you want to TnB there is nothing better then the Hurri2c, when you get in that mood, take it up with 50% fuel and drops,  its a monster.

last night in one particular fight i was being engaged by 3 cons one 190 and two 109s, i killed all of them, because they tried to TnB with me in the Hurri.

 

[Urchin]

Here are two I made today.   

These highlight a few things - first, how awful my aim is now.  Second, how awful most people that play this game are.  Third, how gigantic the cockpit bars in the 190 are. 

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?azjagsajjoy

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ayaeaw9kawa

[Yenny]

 Third, how gigantic the cockpit bars in the 190 are. 

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?azjagsajjoy

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ayaeaw9kawa

QFT lol, one of the biggest challange w/ 190.

[33Vortex]

Vudak got it right. It's all about nose low turns and nose low manuevers (low yoyo, split S, etc). The 190, like any plane, can compete just dandy in the horizontal as long as its speed is within a certain range. Once the speed drops, you have to give up on flat turns, use nose low manuevers to "keep serve" in the fight, until your airspeed is high enough that you can use a few more offensive manuevers. Then dip down again for airspeed, and repeat.

As good as any 190 sticks may appear to be in TnB, I guarentee that they are not riding the buzzer and miraculously coming about, but are taking breaks from their offensive manuevers to use nose low neutral manuevers until they can go offensive again. Watch closely and that is what you will see.