Flop in the Philippines 1944

[Shifty]

An FSO rating might be a good idea for one reason or another. However it's already tasking enough for the staff and CIC's to balance out things with numbers, and who flew what last. I'm not sure adding another thing to monitor or consider when planning a frame would be a good thing. Besides, the Muppets and 9GIAP have earned their skills through competetion, not because somebody made it easier for them. They smoked us because they were the better cartoon pilots.

We can live with it, pick oursleves up, dust off, and have another go at it without a major change in the planeset, rules, or assignements. If we can't do that, then we need to go fly somewhere else. The big boys fly in the FSO, and you better learn to run at speed or you get run over, simple as that. It is the best part of AH Bug I agree with you 100% there. I don't think it should be made easier for anybody, regardless of skill level. We need to earn our stripes just like everybody else.
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[TheBug]

Or maybe. Just, maybe. WxMans plan for the Axis was just extremely superior to MGD's.

Well I personally highly doubt that the orders would have such an impact, but I agree that it could be a possibility.  But if it is a possibility that warrants closer examination then why was the planeset changed so quickly?

Mind you I flew a ki61 the first frame and would be happy with it for the next two.  Just trying to be helpful and not critical of any decisions made.

[TheBug]

An FSO rating might be a good idea for one reason or another. However it's already tasking enough for the staff and CIC's to balance out things with numbers, and who flew what last. I'm not sure adding another thing to monitor or consider when planning a frame would be a good thing. Besides, the Muppets and 9GIAP have earned their skills through competetion, not because somebody made it easier for them. They smoked us because they were the better cartoon pilots.

We can live with it, pick oursleves up, dust off, and have another go at it without a major change in the planeset, rules, or assignements. If we can't do that, then we need to go fly somewhere else. The big boys fly in the FSO, and you better learn to run at speed or you get run over, simple as that. It is the best part of AH Bug I agree with you 100% there. I don't think it should be made easier for anybody, regardless of skill level. We need to earn our stripes just like everybody else.
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Now that I think about the numbers it would be just as easy as balancing the sides by a combination of numbers, average kills over last 15 frames and previous versus requested sides.  I may be wrong but I don't see it being that much more work, especially after the first time.

As for making it "easier", I guess I wouldn't of chose that term for it.  It has more to do with making it balanced.  There is nothing to say an inexperienced squad still won't get jumped by an experienced one, it is just trying to help eliminate 4 inexperienced ones, on one side, getting jumped by 4 experienced on the other side.   Having it play out 2 on 2 going both ways would be balanced for a side, but not necessarily easier for an inexperienced squad.  Hopefully my babble makes sense.

I believe reducing the number of Franks and Georges is along the lines of making it easier. <S>

[Nefarious]

It was changed because 1/8 of the Axis Pilots managed to claim 1/3 of the Axis Kills while flying the N1K and Ki84.

[TheBug]

It was changed because 1/8 of the Axis Pilots managed to claim 1/3 of the Axis Kills while flying the N1K and Ki84.

I'm sorry, call me thick, but you're losing me.  My first post was saying that the cause of the result you state above might have been an imbalance in fighter skill to one side, not a plane set imbalance.  You countered it might have been a superior plan.  I really believe the plane set was not the issue and although I agree that an immediate fix is to reduce the Georges and Franks, I think it would be a case of treating the symptom and not the cause.  Just my opinion of course. <S>

[Shifty]

I believe reducing the number of Franks and Georges is along the lines of making it easier. <S>

I agree, I never asked for it, or  even considered it.

It wasn't as much that we were in F6Fs and they were in N1K2s as it was we were heavy and commited to our strike. In fact we were nosing over when they started their attacks on us. We were they only Allies in sight and we ran afoul of the N1k2s flown by who in my opinion are two of the very best FSO squadrons. Heck we still have guys that can't spell FSO.

Had we been in air to air mode and ready for a fight we may had fared a little better, however we were still outclassed in pilot skill, experiance, and tactics. In fact Fridays FSO was a good thing for us. We learned some things, I learned some things. Some sacred cow tactics I've held onto for years were finnally pulled from the unit playbook and put on the BBq grill.
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[Nefarious]

I really believe the plane set was not the issue and although I agree that an immediate fix is to reduce the Georges and Franks, I think it would be a case of treating the symptom and not the cause.  Just my opinion of course. <S>

I respect your and everyone's opinions, but I don't have very long to sit and look at every possibility of why things happened between frames. I looked at the logs and that is what I based my decision on. <S>

[daddog]

You need to quit your day job Nef.

[Nefarious]

You need to quit your day job Nef.

Not until I start getting paid to write FSO 

[TheBug]

I agree, I never asked for it, or  even considered it.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound as if I thought you did.  Was just talking about the quick fix chosen.

[TheBug]

I respect your and everyone's opinions, but I don't have very long to sit and look at every possibility of why things happened between frames. I looked at the logs and that is what I based my decision on. <S>

As I respect your decisions. <S>

I understand and agree that the plane set change was a necessary quick fix to the current setup.  But my discussion was based more on a long term fix for future FSOs.  Which there is time to have discussions regarding beter balancing.

Looking past this FSO, what is wrong with balancing a side with the additional parameter of squad kills?

I appreciate your taking the time to reply Nef.

[daddog]

I have thought of that before over the years. Not the first time this has come up. Even came up with a system, but I never posted it.

Currently we have several multiple choices for squads to commit to when we are talking about attendance for the current FSO’s.
4-6 = 1
7-10 = 2
11-15 = 3
16-21 = 4
22-27 = 5
28-32 = 6
32+ = 7
As you can see I gave each bracket a number value. The larger the squad the larger the number value. Then each squad can be given another number based on their skill level.
Below average = 0
Average = 1
Above average = 2
 
CM’s could track the past performance of the last 3 FSO’s and come up with a formula that would rate them (0, 1, or 2) according to the number of kills they have VS the number of deaths they have per frame. The most a squad could have would be 9 if they were a VERY large squad and had an excellent kill to death ratio. The least a squad could have would be 1 which would be a new small squad with a below average kill to death ratio. Each squad is rated from 1-9 prior to the CM balancing sides. The CM then just adds up the numbers till both side have about the same total.

We could come up with 50 different ways to do this, but it is a simple and easy way to balance sides. Simply add up the numbers and balance by that and not just by squad size.

Having explained this there are three inherent problems with this method or any method really that would adopt squad ratings on performance.

1 – It does not account for rotating squads Allied and Axis. Currently unless a squad requests it, no squad should be Axis more than twice in a row. No brainer since most squads prefer to be Allied.
2 – It does not account for squads who have a specific ride. For example can you picture the 56th Fighter Group slotted to be Axis flying Ju88’s when they always want to fly the P-47’s.
3 – It creates more work for the Admin CM.

For me the above three issues were enough to never adopt that kind of system. It is vitally important CM’s running the FSO’s
1 – Rotate squads between Allied and Axis
2 – “Try” to give squads with particular rides that ride when possible
3 – Don’t create more work for themselves

Who knows, maybe the CM's will do something like this, but I never wanted to for reasons stated.

My two cents for what it is worth.

[Shifty]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound as if I thought you did.  Was just talking about the quick fix chosen.

NP Tom, I didn't think you were implying that. I just wanted make sure we didn't get credit for the N1K2/Ki-84 cutbacks by somebody not paying attention. Then again since we were part of the large body count I guess we did contribute to it somewhat.
Thanks. <S>

[AKKaz]

Read through this whole thing, and it does surprise me in all this that 2 items in regard to aircraft was not even mentioned. My group was defending 15 in KI61's, so all I can attest to is what I saw there.

1.  A couple of groups at different timings, main bodies were coalt or better when intercepted.  These F6's were hvy and never took any evasive actions when initially engaged.  They stayed for the most part on target and some dove from 15k to drop their ords.  Not actually sure how many did auger into the ground, but it seemed like more than a few that went to sharp to fast to have any way to pull out.  And those that did, only climbed up about 2k then reversed for another pass.

2.  after the first grouping, almost all our guys were low over the feild.  Another large group and inbetween some stragglers had more than a higher alt advantage.  Many times we would call each other for "check 6" only to see the F6's steer past our own out of e aircraft to make a run on the base.  Then climb out 2k and turn back in. Many of us was was scratching our heads as to why they wasn't even taking shots on us when they were 400 - 600 on our tail, but instead would slip to the side as if we were in a car in the slow lane.

I don't think the tallies, nor what has been said here gives a full reflection of what happened in that area.  Not sure about the other areas, but we were confused as to the passing up of our 6's and just as dumbfounded as to why a F6 with a much better E state would fly through the base only to do a 2k yoyo right back into the KI's.  In a few case, some even stayed turning around again and again right on top of the base with the odds 5 to 1 when they had the initial E to extend out after drop.

Don't get me wrong, not slamming anyone for their choice here.  Just seems that people are using the tally stats here with the mind frame that this is proof of the mismatch of planeset or the outclass of planeset.  This is just not the case from what I saw in the area we were at.  It wouldn't have mattered whether we were in zekes, nik's or KI's,  the decisions/actions made as I described above would have ended with the same result there.

[TheBug]

Thanks for that detailed explanation Daddog <S>

Wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to be helpful.  I hope it wasn't thought otherwise 

I had a great FSO last Friday, was full of action and still in awe of the great squad I was fortunate to hook up with.  But I have had those nights of frustration and thought maybe there was an idea out there to help smooth things out.  But after Daddog's post I can see it has been something considered in the past.  I don't envy the CM's position and am very appreciative of their efforts.

Looking forward to this Friday! <S>