Author Topic: What counts?  (Read 4355 times)

Offline humble

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2008, 03:42:56 PM »
As Mace said its an interesting thread, I'll approach it from a bit of a different angle....

Correct situational awareness is essential in order to achieve good tactical awareness. While "TA" is a subset of "SA" the inverse is not true. Any decision that would be tactical that is based on faulty or incorrect SA is flawed to some degree. Broader situational awareness is the foundation that good tactical decisions are built on. The better the SA the sounder and more precise the "TA" can be...

Now I agree completely with this statement...

Tactical Awareness is the diligent scrutiny of a single opponent's moves, behaviors and likely intentions in order to decide the proper counter-maneuvers to deal with him specifically, in hermetic isolation, as efficiently as possible. Tactical Awareness is always required in any engagement....

This part is a fallacy to me situational awareness is not since without enough observation {"SA"} you have insufficient data available to make those decisions accurately. To me "TA" is roughly the timeframe from the merge on, blending back into the time visibility is established.

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2008, 03:43:33 PM »
Wow.  Quite a thread, I'm not sure where to start.  You could write a book on this subject alone.  Let me say I don't think it really matters much how you define things except in a training environment where you're trying to convey certain information in a very specific way to generate an overall understanding.  That said, there are many, many different definitions in use even today although the military has tried to standardize.  Terminology can vary not just between the services but between squadrons or even sections.

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Great post Mace ty sir!  :salute

The quoted section above is exactly where I am coming from in this discussion of Awareness. Whether a term is a part of some universal vernacular or not doesn't really matter for the purpose of expounding upon a complex subject in discussion and debate format. It's interesting that you point out that in the real world the vernacular used varies greatly for the purpose of actually relating real-world combat aviation experience and insights. My use of terms is almost never a simple parroting of something extracted verbatim from a textbook or other formally published document. I will often use creative solutions and coined terminology to explain and describe, in a more refined way, concepts that when left grossly generalized are not necessarily most conducive to ease of understanding and application.

In my mind at least, there is a HUGE difference in the mental processes involved when maintaining awareness of a single intimately engaged foe in isolation and when maintaining awareness of a complex engagement involving many friends, foes and myriad of other mitigating factors. The terms I used, Tactical Awareness and Strategic Awareness, which together form the full spectrum of Situational Awareness as I described earlier, really encapsulates the distinction between the two in terms of the mental approach to those very different types of engagements. You could call them whatever you want to, but making no distinction whatsoever conceptually is not just misleading it's a disservice to promoting understanding of the entire broad concept of Situational Awareness and how it is practically applied to various types of engagements. IMHO...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 04:24:18 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2008, 03:58:55 PM »
As Mace said its an interesting thread, I'll approach it from a bit of a different angle....

Correct situational awareness is essential in order to achieve good tactical awareness. While "TA" is a subset of "SA" the inverse is not true. Any decision that would be tactical that is based on faulty or incorrect SA is flawed to some degree. Broader situational awareness is the foundation that good tactical decisions are built on. The better the SA the sounder and more precise the "TA" can be...

Now I agree completely with this statement...

Tactical Awareness is the diligent scrutiny of a single opponent's moves, behaviors and likely intentions in order to decide the proper counter-maneuvers to deal with him specifically, in hermetic isolation, as efficiently as possible. Tactical Awareness is always required in any engagement....

This part is a fallacy to me situational awareness is not since without enough observation {"SA"} you have insufficient data available to make those decisions accurately. To me "TA" is roughly the timeframe from the merge on, blending back into the time visibility is established.

Good point humble. That's why I went on to say, for the purpose of clarity and illustration we could further improve the terminology I used to capture the spirit of that concept as follows...

Strategic Awareness + Tactical Awareness = Situational Awareness

The interesting point we both make there is, you can be exercising Strategic Awareness while not even actively engaged with anyone or even anywhere near them. In practice we do this all the time. We do this prior to selecting a target initially, when deciding if we need to switch targets, while assaying the strategic picture as a prelude to decision making in general or immediately after dispatching an enemy during the post-kill strategic evaluation period in order to acquire a new target or choose another prudent course of action.

On the flip-side, Tactical Awareness really only refers to the period at which you are actively engaged with an opponent, so it is not exercised at all times during a flight. In a broad sense, as Tactical Awareness is a fractional subset of Situational Awareness, you are exercising both. But, you can definitely be Tactically Aware without being Strategically Aware. All the guys prone to duel-esque style target fixation crying every 5 minutes about being cruelly victimized by gangbangers and cherrypickers in, "Hapless victim syndrome", fashion can attest to that truth.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 04:16:53 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2008, 04:32:53 PM »
Aye, as defined today,

I see someone knows who Mica R. Endsley is , possibly even "Know the Situation. Know the Solution."

btw..excellent reply, Mace  :aok
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2008, 04:34:31 PM »
Re: What counts?

whether you are having fun or not....is the only thing that has ever counted  :cool:
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline A8Jaraxl

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2008, 04:38:33 PM »
First time to post,

As a Vet, I would agree with Mace, there are many different variations of the same thing. SA/TA... doesn't matter.

Its all a part of your decision making process which doesn't NOT change, for 1 target or 20, it only requires you gather more information.

The standard accepted decision making process today (which is no different then what they used in WW2, only given a name)

It is called OODA LOOP.

"The OODA Loop model was developed by Col. John Boyd, USAF (Ret). When Colonel John Boyd first introduced the OODA (Observe-Orient-Decide-Act) loop concept during the Korean War, he was referring to the ability possessed by fighter pilots that allowed them to succeed in combat. It is now used by the U.S. Marines and other organizations. The premise of the model is that decision making is the result of rational behavior. Problems are viewed as a cycle of Observation, Orientation (situational awareness), Decision, and Action:

Observation - Scan the environment and gather information from it.
Orientation - Use the information to form a mental image of the circumstances. That is, synthesize the data into information. As more information is received, you "deconstruct" old images and then "create" new images. Note that different people require different levels of details to perceive an event. Often, we imply that the reason people cannot make good decisions, is that people are bad decisions makers -- sort of like saying that the reason some people cannot drive is that they are bad drivers. However, the real reason most people make bad decisions is that they often fail to place the information that we do have into its proper context. This is where "Orientation" comes in. Orientation emphasizes the context in which events occur, so that we may facilitate our decisions and actions. That is, orientation helps to turn information into knowledge. And knowledge, not information, is the real predictor of making good decisions.
Decision - Consider options and select a subsequent course of action.
Action - Carry out the conceived decision. Once the result of the action is observed, you start over. Note that in combat (or competing against the competition), you want to cycle through the four steps faster and better than the enemy, hence, it is a loop.
 
For a very good visual model on this go to http://www.d-n-i.net/boyd/boyds_ooda_loop.ppt

As a Retired Marine I will say, we lived this, if you apply this to anything you do, even this game, you will better understand how SA affects you. I suck as a cartoon pilot, mostly for lack of ACM skills (as stated above I lack knowledge, therefore my ACM maneuvers pay for it), but rarely do i get taken without knowing it was coming, long in advance. Not in my nature to run from a fight, rather meet it head on through the merge then see what happens, as I hear, they have a new plane for me back at the base  :aok

Ack-Ack is right as well,

Your process does not change in any form be it 1v1 or 1v100, its the same process. The only factor is that you just get the option of dealing with less information, which can speed up your OODA Loop. More or Less information does not change how you use your decision making process, only the amount of info and time it takes to act.

The others are also correct,

The amount of information that is required before an action is taken is changed when its strictly 1v1 without possibility of interuption, in regards to say 1v4. This is common sense, however understand, that your process did not change in any form.

I think everyone has become to focused on the "words" and not on the meaning of the post. Also to many professional forum Trolls and Flamers, so take with you the good information you might get from the people here, and simply ignore the flamers. Not to say that the occasional Flamer or Troll can not hand out good info, this requires something called Critical Thinking, which we can discuss at a later date.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 04:54:08 PM by A8Jaraxl »

Offline stephen

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2008, 04:44:50 PM »
To clarify, my use of SA was in refrence to what I feel is missing in the Dueling Arena, i.e. a pilot is not required to watch is own tail whilst engaging the nearest foe...
His mind is of two thing "what is my situation" and "what is my enemy's situation" there is no consideration for the outside intrusion which often occurs in the Main Arena,

Therefore maintaning situational awareness  is at-least made easier by the fact that your engaging one con, and one con only.

Now wheres that airmans thesarus?.....
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 04:47:05 PM by stephen »
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Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2008, 04:48:19 PM »
I see someone knows who Mica R. Endsley is , possibly even "Know the Situation. Know the Solution."

btw..excellent reply, Mace  :aok

Yep Endsly's flow chart is posted on the Wikipedia SA page.

Offline 999000

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2008, 04:52:49 PM »
SA in a bomber can be quite challenging and fun.........If you have 2-4 fighters attacking you B17 formation SA and emotional intelligence experience and luck is all you have........sometimes the best thing you have is knowing your enemy..people often comment when they attack me ..that they know its me...often I also know who's attacking me......and knowing their attack moves i can best deside which enemy to pay first attention to and anticipate the 2-3 -4 guys moves and my counter movers from how they perch their attack.
long story longer I never underestimate dumb luck!..even with it i usually get shot down!
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Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2008, 04:55:32 PM »
The quoted section above is exactly where I am coming from in this discussion of Awareness. Whether a term is a part of some universal vernacular or not doesn't really matter for the purpose of expounding upon a complex subject in discussion and debate format. It's interesting that you point out that in the real world the vernacular used varies greatly for the purpose of combat training. My use of terms is almost never a simple parroting of something extracted verbatim from a textbook or other formally published document. I will often use creative solutions and coined terminology to explain and describe, in a more refined way, concepts that when left grossly generalized are not necessarily most conducive to ease of understanding and application.

In my mind at least, there is a HUGE difference in mental processes involved when maintaining awareness of a single intimately engaged foe in isolation and maintaining awareness of a complex engagement involving many friends and foes. The terms I used, Tactical Awareness and Strategic Awareness, which together form the full spectrum of Situational Awareness as I described earlier really encapsulates the distinction between the two in terms of the mental approach to those very different types of engagements. You could call them whatever you want to, but making no distinction whatsoever conceptually is not just misleading it's a disservice to promoting understanding of the entire broad concept of Situational Awareness. IMHO...

If you look closely at the posts you will see that Mace and I made the same points individually.  (Thank you for your perspective by the way Mace)  1) There are variations on definitions depending on context and source.  2) It all falls under SA.  3) If a different way of conceptuizing it works for you, great.

The only place I spoke up is where you started to re-define broader terms by logically applying "creative solutions" to them.  Some fundamentals are not really up for debate, because in the end it causes more confusion than understanding.  Actually that is the same issue that drew my attention in the stallfighting topic.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2008, 05:07:43 PM »

Your process does not change in any form be it 1v1 or 1v100, its the same process. The only factor is that you just get the option of dealing with less information, which can speed up your OODA Loop. More or Less information does not change how you use your decision making process, only the amount of info and time it takes to act.

I don't think we are arguing the logic of decision making based on observations, that same logic is not even unique to warfare in general let alone SA. I think the contentious issue is the type of information and the type of decision making required. There is a large swath of information you don't need or particularly care about if isolated in a 1 vs 1 fight. It's not just that the unnecessary information is 1/100th as important as it would be if you were fighting 100 enemy as opposed to just 1 enemy, it's actually of absolutely ZERO significance, therefore has absolutely zero effect on your combat efficiency, it doesn't even need to be considered.

If in a complex engagement however, not only do you need and care about that extra information, but it suddenly becomes the focal point of your attention to varying degrees throughout the engagement. So, all of the decisions you make based upon that extra information, although also a result of observations, are not in the same realm as the purely tactical decision making processes, they differ greatly in terms variability, complexity, and the types of decisions you must make.

As an example, in a complex engagement vigilant active SA requires you always be open minded to breaking off one bandit to switch to another. Not only that but, your information precipitating this decision has to be incredibly accurate as precise timing is hugely important. In an isolated 1 vs 1 encounter, no such information is even gathered, the entire decision making process specifically relating to that type of information and subsequent decisions need not be entertained at all. The entire premise of the engagement is fundamentally based upon different information leading to potentially very different decisions.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 05:10:13 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2008, 05:24:35 PM »

The only place I spoke up is where you started to re-define broader terms by logically applying "creative solutions" to them.  Some fundamentals are not really up for debate, because in the end it causes more confusion than understanding.  

Googling Wikipedia quotes and pasting them here only gets you so far in an entertaining discussion and debate, I could train a Chimpanzee to do that in an afternoon. I make a very respectable living coming up with creative and imaginative solutions to incredibly complex problems. In fact, it's the very quality of human beings to innovate and create that keeps us from going the way of the dinosaurs. In any topic where the real-life theory and in-game practice seem to leave a concept lacking in applicable refinement I like to try to come up with better ways to attempt to enhance understanding of it.

However flawed or counter-intuitive my ideas may seem to some, my intentions are always benevolent and genuine. I can only assume my mind works the same way as others when conceptualizing for public consumption. If it doesn't I just assume people will go on their merry way and/or accept the more appealing assertions of another debater. But, if it helps just one person achieve an epiphany they can enjoy for life, even if the result of disagreeing with my ideas, I am content that my effort to promote discussion and debate was indeed fruitful.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 05:33:15 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2008, 05:35:04 PM »
Yep Endsly's flow chart is posted on the Wikipedia SA page.

Hell, wikpedia never crossed my mind, I was refering to the Doctor/Engineer and  SA Technologies, Inc.


and dang, Zazen, is that the way you always type words when replying, or do you have some type of Proffessor of an university Speech Translator?
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2008, 05:45:07 PM »
Googling Wikipedia quotes and pasting them here only gets you so far in an entertaining discussion and debate.

Listen you.  We, and I mean the Trainers don't just sit around and dream this stuff up, or go run to google for resources.  There are decades of this stuff being written and rewritten, lost, and rediscovered.  Sources you'll probably never see unless for some reason you're compelled to make the effort to get books and documents on your own.  You'll notice TC recognized the actual book source of that diagram the same as I did.  TC and I have never even discussed the topic among ourselves before.

There is not one word copied and posted by me to this thread.

I'll repeat the problem is you present whatever you say in a matter of fact manner as if it carries more weight than just being your opinion.  That is not a problem until you start screwing around with fundamentals of air combat.  

Do I come off as arrogant with this post?  Let me tell you what is arrogant.  Your assumption that everyone should just adopt the Zazeneeze language and piss on the century of concepts preceeding you.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2008, 05:47:48 PM »
 1) There are variations on definitions depending on context and source.  2) It all falls under SA.  3) If a different way of conceptuizing it works for you, great.



That actually brings up a good point. The formal, real-world application of SA really is almost entirely predicated upon the presence of a multi-plane environment, or at the very least the very real possibility of other planes becoming a factor at some point during the engagement. Air combat, especially after WWI, was almost entirely comprised of multi-plane engagements. The occurrence of truly isolated 1 vs 1 fights were so incredibly rare historically as to be practically insignificant in terms of proportion. So, to take the SA the real air combat world uses and then try to apply that to an in-game 1 vs 1 duel is a perversion beyond intention and really only pertinent by indirect inference. The 1 vs 1 duel, especially Co-E/Alt/same plane, is obviously a pure contrivance of gaming, the complex multi-plane fights in the MA are far more akin to the reality of air combat during WWII, just minus the long hours of boring flight without combat.
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc