Author Topic: This seems SOOO WRONG  (Read 2165 times)

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2008, 09:54:43 AM »
These insidents will only convince your enemy to HATE you. They'll think twice before offering any surrender to you, since they're as good as dead if they do.
The US army should pretty well know that, for it has quite some roots in military history.
When the Germans were spotted mass-executing US captives in the fall of 1944, there were US soldiers after that surrendering. This may have fused the perhaps finest dig-in in US army history in the bocage. Surrender? NUTS! Vot? GO TO HELL!
In short, conducts like this provoke very strong resistance. And then: play like this, you are at the same level as the enemy, so who is the bad guy?
Angus, What German execution of US captives are you referring to? The Malmedy Massacre occured in December '44, in Belgium. Bastogne (Belgium) is not in the bocage region of France (it's roughly 290 miles away), and the seige occured 5 months after the bocage fighting in France was over. :confused:
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2008, 09:58:07 AM »
Maybe he did commit a crime (I don't think so), BUT it is NOT the state of comifornia's job to press charges. If there is enough evidence to bring charges against him then the Iraqi government should do it, or the International War Crimes Tribunial.

Woah, someone at the O'Club is advocating an international court?  I must've forgot to take my meds. :huh
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Offline Jackal1

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2008, 09:59:11 AM »
That may be true, but since there was no other trial, this puts some rather dirty deals from within the military under the spotlight.
A CO who orders captives to be shot/executed deserves a court marshal. And any bloody soldier should know that.
You don't shoot captives and play the good guy at the same time....

You don`t play in war period.
Rules in war when you are the only one trying to play by them??
Give me a break.
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Offline Hornet33

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2008, 10:05:25 AM »
Woah, someone at the O'Club is advocating an international court?  I must've forgot to take my meds. :huh

They want to charge him with a war crime then let the war crimes tribunial handle it. Comifornia doesn't have a war crimes tribunial do they? Didn't think so.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2008, 10:14:17 AM »
They want to charge him with a war crime then let the war crimes tribunial handle it. Comifornia doesn't have a war crimes tribunial do they? Didn't think so.

Again, I'm reading the O'Club and it's "take him to the hague, it's not up to us to prosecute our own soldiers." :confused:

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Offline CAP1

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2008, 10:17:25 AM »
These insidents will only convince your enemy to HATE you. They'll think twice before offering any surrender to you, since they're as good as dead if they do.
The US army should pretty well know that, for it has quite some roots in military history.
When the Germans were spotted mass-executing US captives in the fall of 1944, there were US soldiers after that surrendering. This may have fused the perhaps finest dig-in in US army history in the bocage. Surrender? NUTS! Vot? GO TO HELL!
In short, conducts like this provoke very strong resistance. And then: play like this, you are at the same level as the enemy, so who is the bad guy?

THEY ALREADY  do hate us. obvously your way doesnt work.

our soldiers are trained to fight. they are the best in the world. there are none better, or better equipped.
it's a crying shame that they are not allowed to use their excellent training and equipment.

 war is bad.....we all agree on that. the fact is though, that it happens, and will continue to happen. while the insurgents continue to fight without rules, and the US continues to fight with rules, this will go on forever. this could stop in less than a month if our military were allowed to actually fight.

 and now, after having people they thought weren't combatants shooting at them, snipers shooting from houses, then when they go in there, every occupant says it wasn't them,  sidewalks  blowing up due to explosives being embedded....car bombs, suicide bombers, these poor guys have to totally tubular worry about civilians THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN IN COMBAT JUDGING THEM?  are you people insane???????

 if it were reversed, do you think the iraquis would have shown any quarter to our men? i think not. if they were in the house where fire came from, they were combatants.

 let these guys do their jobs. if they do something wrong, let military courts handle it.

 
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2008, 10:28:01 AM »
Should military courts have jurisdiction to prosecute after discharge?  Right now they don't.  That's why the Federal Government is using this tactic.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »
Should military courts have jurisdiction to prosecute after discharge?  Right now they don't.  That's why the Federal Government is using this tactic.

It isn't the Feds doing this, its the State of Kalifornia.

Military members can be recalled to active duty apparently for cases such as this.
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2008, 10:44:03 AM »
Guys like him are not stable in combat. You guys should pay better attention to the mental health of your combatants. Incidents like these only get you into more trouble in the end. International law is to be followed, war or no war. Yours is a country that very much like to enforce international law on other countries. Why not lead by example?

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2008, 10:44:26 AM »
It isn't the Feds doing this, its the State of Kalifornia.

Military members can be recalled to active duty apparently for cases such as this.
The article says federal prosecution.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2008, 10:51:40 AM »
Guys like him are not stable in combat. You guys should pay better attention to the mental health of your combatants. Incidents like these only get you into more trouble in the end. International law is to be followed, war or no war. Yours is a country that very much like to enforce international law on other countries. Why not lead by example?

wait? the guys we're fighting agianst aren't following it, but we're supposed to? if we do, we're doomed to defeat.

1 law in a war........WIN.  period.

 how are you supposed to stay "mentally stable" in conditions like these guys are in?

people shooting at you every turn of the corner, never know who your friends are, never know if you're gonna see tomorrow......that's insanity. i'd worry more about the guy that DOES appear mentally stable than those that appear to have problems.

i also believe that if he was in the wrong, i think that the military can call him back to duty. then at least he'd have a fair trial.

 what the hell does kalifornia have to do with something that happened in iraq? now that i'm thinking about THAT, i'd be even MORE pissed if i lived there......they're wasting tax dollars to put this guy on trial that has/had NOTHING AT ALL to do with them :mad: :furious :rolleyes:
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Offline Elfie

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2008, 10:57:59 AM »
The article says federal prosecution.

Quote
Telephone messages for a spokesman in the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles seeking comment were not returned.

I think I got Kalifornia from:

Quote
IRVINE, Calif. —  A former Marine sergeant facing the first federal civilian prosecution of a military member accused of a war crime says there is much more at stake than his claim of innocence on charges that he killed unarmed detainees in Fallujah, Iraq.

It's happening in Kalifornia, but the charges are being brought by the feds.....my bad. :)
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2008, 11:06:22 AM »
wait? the guys we're fighting agianst aren't following it, but we're supposed to? if we do, we're doomed to defeat.

1 law in a war........WIN.  period.

 how are you supposed to stay "mentally stable" in conditions like these guys are in?

people shooting at you every turn of the corner, never know who your friends are, never know if you're gonna see tomorrow......that's insanity. i'd worry more about the guy that DOES appear mentally stable than those that appear to have problems.

i also believe that if he was in the wrong, i think that the military can call him back to duty. then at least he'd have a fair trial.

 what the hell does kalifornia have to do with something that happened in iraq? now that i'm thinking about THAT, i'd be even MORE pissed if i lived there......they're wasting tax dollars to put this guy on trial that has/had NOTHING AT ALL to do with them :mad: :furious :rolleyes:

Cap1, with all due respect, you're wrong on this one.  One of the best ways to win a war is to treat the defeated enemy/POWs humanely because it encourages surrender.  Shooting prisoners only encourages the enemy to continue fighting until the death, which is a lot more costly for our side, both in $ and in lives.

Secondly, re-read the article.  It clearly explains in the first sentence that the marine faces Federal Prosecution, not state prosecution by California.
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2008, 11:09:41 AM »
wait? the guys we're fighting agianst aren't following it, but we're supposed to? if we do, we're doomed to defeat.

1 law in a war........WIN.  period.

 how are you supposed to stay "mentally stable" in conditions like these guys are in?

people shooting at you every turn of the corner, never know who your friends are, never know if you're gonna see tomorrow......that's insanity. i'd worry more about the guy that DOES appear mentally stable than those that appear to have problems.

i also believe that if he was in the wrong, i think that the military can call him back to duty. then at least he'd have a fair trial.

 what the hell does kalifornia have to do with something that happened in iraq? now that i'm thinking about THAT, i'd be even MORE pissed if i lived there......they're wasting tax dollars to put this guy on trial that has/had NOTHING AT ALL to do with them :mad: :furious :rolleyes:


WAR is nothing but sanctioned murder. Before going to war it is wise to know the limits of these sanctions, to know what you can and can not do. If you can't accept the fact you're going to die you have no business being a soldier, it comes with the job. Some people deal with it better than others and some can't even handle it. Bottom line is all front line soldiers need support in order to maintain their mental healt (assuming they were mentally healthy before combat duty), something I sense is clearly lacking in the US armed forces. Everyone have a breaking point, military training is supposed to find that breaking point to assess the individual's capacity. Something is not adding up when stuff like this happens.

After all, this is the 21st century and not WW2. We do know a great deal more about the human mind, and how combat stress affect us, than we did back then.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:11:38 AM by 33Vortex »

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Offline CAP1

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Re: This seems SOOO WRONG
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2008, 11:26:50 AM »
Cap1, with all due respect, you're wrong on this one.  One of the best ways to win a war is to treat the defeated enemy/POWs humanely because it encourages surrender.  Shooting prisoners only encourages the enemy to continue fighting until the death, which is a lot more costly for our side, both in $ and in lives.

Secondly, re-read the article.  It clearly explains in the first sentence that the marine faces Federal Prosecution, not state prosecution by California.

you could be right.....i'm just really pissed, because i don't believe anyone outside military should be allowed to judge a soldiers actions during a combat action. it seems like a slap in the face. even the feds really. if he did wrong, am i not right in believing he should be recalled, and then tried in a military court? that seems fairest, as then the people judging him will have been in his shoes at one point or another.

 but then, i still have problems with the guys shooting at them too.....then when we overrun them, it's kinda like  ""ooopsy!!! we give up.

i dunno............
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