The buff attack...

[Nexus]

DB603,

Furthermore, according to historical documentories, not antidotal stories, that I have seen, tail and ball gunners had an average life expectancy of 5 missions.

A bomber crew's tour of duty was 25 missions, however few bombers during the early part of the war made it to 25 missions.

Thus, one of the reasons why the Memphis Belle was so famous - it was one of the first (other reasons being propaganda and raising moral)

In the early part of the war, the American B17s flew during the day with out fighter escorts, and as a result their losses were heavy - I've heard, as much as 15 to 20% per sortie.

That means if 800 bombers sortie, 120 to 160 did not return.

If I recall correctly there was one raid which suffered a loss of over 300 B17s, and as a result the allies stood down for a few weeks to re-accessed the situation.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong - or add more detail if I'm right.

My impression, is that the B17s were not defenseless,  but they were also not as all powerful as some of these "wannabe" buff experts think they should be.

Another tactic the German's employed was to attack the B17 from the left or right front quarter, and kill pilot and co-pilot and knock out the flight controls.

Seems as if these type of canopy shots are not modeled at all in this game.  

Have to chop off a wing, hit a gas tank or something to make the plane explode to take down a buff.

Nexus

[Tac]

"Seems as if these type of canopy shots are not modeled at all in this game"

Yes it is. Get a 202 and HO a buff. film it. If the buff blows up, look at the film, you will see a hit sprite on the cockpit windows. SPLAT went the pilot and copilot.

Gunners on the other hand, are almost unkillable. Ive constantly sprayd a lanc from nose to tail, hitting with .50's on the fuselage, lighting it up like an x-mas tree.. and all gunners still alive. B17's are even worse, one such pass wouldve turned half or more of the gunners into sloppy joe.

I really dont mind about that, just take that superconvergence crap out of the buff guns, not even a jug's EIGHT .50's do THAT much damage as the "alleged" 2 .50's that can fire at you (straight from below or straight above, or straigth HO or dead 6 attacks where only 2 .50's should be able to bear on you).

[kfsone]

Nex: The use of 3 anecdotal tales was to emphasise the easy discrepancy (and I didn't feel like typing out reams of stats from the Bomber Command Diaries - so count me lazy =).

Yes, on a B17 the most likely to die were ball gnr and tail gnr. Naturally the Air Forces were investigating this, and the prime reason was those two points of the aircraft being in the main point of attack.

A lot of folks look at gun-cam footage of a fighter taking down a bomber in a single pass, coming in slow from behind. I warn these same folks not to turn on a 'How to make sushi' show half way thru =) ('And you just take your slice of blowfish and wrap it in a leaf. That easy')

I sometimes think that some of the 'buffs are too tough' arguers have lost sight of how large the target is that they are intending to destroy, or think they are projecting that final-pass guncam footage.

Buffs *should* take at least a few passes, and the buff guns should be powerful enough that a solo fighter may not want to make a 'reckless' extra pass. Having had your engine or aileron shot out, you probably wouldn't have made additional passes at the bomber in real-life.

I've been accused of 'cheating' because after using turns to spoil a low-e attacking fighters run on me, having taken some damage anyway and my gunner having laid damage on the fighter, the fighter has then gone fixation-nuts and made additional passes, during which his low-e and damage have allowed my gunner to kill him.

And these have been well-known names. Who seemed royally peeved that an empty lanc rtb'ing would maneuver to defend itself. LOL =)

[iculus]

A buff is good for maybe 2 fighters: "4 with relative ease"?  No way.  The way many people attack a buff around here is to fly right in, pretty much cripple the buff, then fall to the bomber's guns.  Next fighter comes along, does the same.  Wing falls off bomber.  Fighter takes damage, may not get shot down.

Those of you who constantly complain about buff guns really need some data to back up your complaint.  I'd say that when I fly bombers, 75% (Data! ) of the attacks easily come from the dead six, high six, or low six, and the above scenario comes into play.  Buff guns are the way they are simply because most intend to ram their plane into the tail gunner, then they get shot down, and then they complain.

You'll note the guys that *know* how to attack a bomber, are not the ones complaining.

Sorry KFS, to steal your thread
BTW, I like your idea

<S>IC  

[DB603]

S!

 OK..Lanc is best killed from above or below.No sweat.But B17 is different story.Hard to get and needs extreme luck and good marksmanship.The gunners are not dying even when hit by 20mm...
 Tested WB3 today(as every day) and buffs there.Guess what..No shrecking uber guns!Those guns shaked when firing making it impossible to have these AH-style 200rd bursts  Like the cockpit shake we have in fighters but a bit stronger.Otto gunners..no comment.But NO through fuselage firing guns  Also bombing much more harder than this Paveway III we have here  *end of comparison*
 



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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[Tac]

Iculus, AH buff guns have perfect convergence from ALL guns in one spot at any range up to d1.3 . Being pinged ONCE by it is like being hit by a P-47's 8 .50's at d200...when the p47 has the guns SET to 200 convergence. One shot, you're OUT. Add to that the happy shoot-thru-fuselage ball turret (and why not, top turret may do it too, need mitsu to get us a pic of that), the non-shaking of buff guns (last time I checked, the human body is NOT a steady gun platform) and you have all the evidence you need.

Get a b17 to fly level for you, then have the gunner see you diving from 12 OC hi, where only the top turret should be able to bear on you.. then watch how quickly the "2" .50's will shoot you down..even when you diving at 450mph.

In AH, if the gunner sees you and is not an extremely lame shot, he will kill you, no matter what angle you attack from.

[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 06-05-2001).]

[Pepe]

Here we go again...  

Buffs almost made me quit this game. No, I do not take the risk of fighting them now. Not unless my field is still alive and they are a threat to it, and they are not complete dweebs (that is, flying 30k and over). I have utmost respect for buff drivers sticking to real working conditions. I deeply depise those gaming the game. Don't tell me alt is their defense. Those deadly zillion-perfect-convergence-firing-through-fuselage-super-duper .50's are.

I think I'm an average buff killer, and I definitely know how to set up a "safe" attack (now implementing that is a different animal  ). I think the main problem with buffs is that they are skill-less gun platforms. There is not a single gram of skill needed to perform a successful buff mission when you take your time to climb. You do not need to fire, if you don't want to. Just climb to your 38k (yes, I've seen that), and that's all. Chances you will have to fight anything up there are really slim, and in that unlikely event, your kill-o-matic weapons will make an easy work of whatever (Ta152 included) figthter dumb enough to engage. Did I mention that buffs can still pinpoint SINGLE acks from that heigth?

On my side, on my particular side, there is no interest in flying or engaging buffs. I would fly buffs if I had a norden sight that force me to spend some time lining. So I would have to navigate to the target. Of course I would love to get rid of GPS system, but I realize this could be asking a little bit too much.

I think the Norden Sight could solve a great deal of the current problems with buffs. CAP could harass buffs, knowing that if they change the course, the buff run is porked, so not risking a fatal hit. Buffs would still retain its ability to defend...

For me, a new Norden Sight, revamped ceiling figures, and have frost-bite modelled (so a buff can not effectively fly over 30k for a long time) would be a great improvement in Buff works. I would fly Buffs again.

Cheers,

Pepe