You're better than you think

[715]

I think perhaps Thor's real topic has been side tracked here by people understandably eager to prevent minimalization of WW2 flyer achievements under very trying conditions.  It is certainly true that no sim faithfully reproduces real life- you just can't with available computer power.  If you think the flight models give a good representation and prepare you to fly the real thing, consider how much they change even from release to release: many planes 'feel' totally different.  Which 'version' is the correct one?  So would I die instantly if I tried to take off in a real Spitfire?  No... but mainly because I wouldn't even know how to start the engine.  Conversely, would a real WW2 ace be able to take up this game and instantly win against me every time?  I don't think that's a given as I probably have many thousand times as many virtual sorties as he has real ones.

But what Thor was trying to point out, I believe, is that most kills in WW2 were 'easy', i.e. the target never saw the enemy coming and the enemy only had to pull onto his six and fire.  That almost NEVER happens in AH, but it doesn't have to be that way.  As Thor suggests, just have an arena, like War Birds, that has NO icons.. ever.  (Well.. in the WB Historical Arena friendlies have icons  but only at very close range.)  I can say from experience that this environment is quite a bit more 'interesting' than the ones where everyone pulls a big neon sign behind them.  It increases your SA and also increases real tactical radio comms (thereby cutting back on useless chatter and flaming).  It also gives you way more of an immersive 'fog of war' feeling: with the current all seeing AWACS environment one can often predict whether one lives or dies way before even the first pass on a group of enemies.  True- it's quite hard to design a workable 'no icon' arena because of the very severe limitation of visual accuity on a computer screen (instead of distance AC having recognizable optical qualities they are just a pixel).

So I think what Thor really wonders is why AH doesn't have an icon free arena.  So how do people feel about a no icon, or no enemy icon, arena?

715

[Dowding]

I've always thought that the point of having icons was to simulate the basic skills I pilot would have (which people have already mentioned), namely,

i) Excellent eyesight
ii) Knowledge of aircraft types

Obviously there is a case for reducing the distance at which the icon appears (which has been done in this version, I think).

When it comes to the game itself, its always going to be limited by the fact that it is a computer program, an approximation to reality and therefore is not able reflect the chaotic, poly-variable nature of real life generally, nevermind flight. So the pilots who become masters at this game can only put a proportion of their success down to knowledge and application of ACM, that could be transferred to real life - the rest is learning the ins and outs of the 'game'.

I think people should see AH for what it is and not try to make too many comparisons with real life (it's just too complicated).

Having said that, it's a damned excellent game and I love every minute of it.   Even getting shot down, which happens alot.

[tssfka]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:

I am not a pilot so I will leave it to them to explain all the things you dont learn about flying in AH. But certainly there must be a lot more to really flying a pony then we see here.

[/B]

Pongo,

I am a pilot so I can say that flying any aircraft is completely different to AH.  Sure it's a good attempt at recreating the real thing but it still happens in your home and not in the air.

At the end of the day, AH will never be more than theory.  It's great to have a bit of fun and learn to fly and fight in the virtual world but step into a real fighter plane and almost every AH pilot wouldn't even know how to start it...

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the way that AH has been modelled.  It's a heck of a lot better than any other flight sims I've seen for the PC.  Take my advice, though, and treat it as a game and leave the unanswerable questions unanswered...

tssfka

[Paxil]

I'm rather new here... so take my opinion with a grain of salt if you want... but...

I think icons are needed. When I am in a plane I can see other planes miles off... tell what type of plane it is and what direction it is headed. You can't get that resolution on a computer monitor. Since this is a *simulation*, the icons are a tool to simulate what you'd be able to see in a real plane. If you want to simulate a half blind pilot... take away the icons, but I hardly see how it would be more realistic.

There is a vast difference between flying a real plane and a virtual one. Obviously we don't fear for our lives like a real pilot, and we don't have the blood rush to our heads while inverted or feel G's etc... but I think most AH pilots have better ACM skills than most WWII pilots. Could they/ would they do this in a real plane? Don't know... but AH pilots have more time practicing flight maneuvers in an environment that fairly realistically reproduces the characteristics of the actual plane, than a WWII pilot could ever dream of. How many times did a WWII get a chance to die? Once... and well... he didn't get a chance to get any better after that.  =) We do... we can make mistakes, learn from them and get better. We are immortal God's in a virtual sky, and of course it isn't real... but we are flying somewhere where most of the laws of physics are simulated, and the experience gained would be valuable to an actual pilot. Learning where the buttons are and starting the thing isn't the hard part people... if that was true any idiot could be a WWII ace. I would think that the hardest part of being a great WWII pilot, would be learning how to get the most from your plane and how to fly it in a variety of situations. In that respect, I think AH pilots would do very well.

I agree 100% with what Easymo said though... there is a huge difference between paper targets and real people, and you can't tell how someone will react without actually experiencing it.

715… I think part of the problem is in adjusting the head position… in RL it takes time and effort to sit up and look around that headrest… in AH just save the head position and boom… you have superman six view. Maybe moving to saved head positions should be slower than a snap, so you couldn’t just glance back there every second while continuing to fly.


[This message has been edited by Paxil (edited 10-02-2000).]

[Igloo]

I would love for absolutly everything to be modeled realistically, right down to the canopy fogging over.  

I'm still waiting for the perfect WWII flight sim that is realistic as it could possibly be in every aspect.  The changes I wouuld make to AH would be:

#1. No Icons
#2. Historical teams
#3. Proper G restraints.
#4. No Radar - realistic navigation.
#5. No range indicator.
#6. Full day/night cycles
#7. Realisitc weather and wind conditions
#8. Random system failures.
#9. Serious penalty for death, thereby inducing some fear of death and promoting more realistic manuvers and engagements.

I highly doubt this would every happen in a sim though.  It would only draw the true simmers to the game and even in a game like this, probably only 10% of the people would play.  I would love it though.  

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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]