I'm Voting Republican...

[AKIron]

It's probably the concept of PC conditioning that's lead us here.. the issue has been packaged with such powerful and emotive words... most of the sheeple have no desire to really face the issue, so they take the easy way out and hop on the 'save the unborn babies' bandwagon.

Meanwhile, you and I and everyone else are really discussing the oncoming loss of ownership of our own corporal entities.

It's an exceptionally simple proposition, really.  The coming choice of the age and the final bastion of the fight for freedom is being waged around your body and it's parts... will YOU be allowed to decide when you can end your life? Will YOU be allowed the dignity to pass on on your terms? Will YOU be allowed to decide who, if anyone has rights to your component parts? Will YOU be allowed to decide what goes in or comes out of your body?

Will YOU be allowed to choose?

Gawdammit.. it's my body. Mine. I reserve all rights to it. Any attack on those rights, no matter what moral skirt you hang on it, is an attack against personal freedom. On the most basic level possible.

There's a LOT of money riding on this... think of the 'players'... think of who will be the winners... who will lose. It really is not about 'unborn babies'. It's about who owns you and everything relevant to the palpitating mass of flesh that IS you. Think it through... and shudder.

It's not about 'save the babies' It's about saving your rights to your body and all it contains.

You might be missing an essential piece of the puzzle? You would have no rights, no body, no nothing, if your mother had decided you didn't deserve a shot at life like so many have in recent years.

[Hangtime]

You might be missing an essential piece of the puzzle? You would have no rights, no body, no nothing, if your mother had decided you didn't deserve a shot at life like so many have in recent years.

Was still her choice. And, there were plenty of women that made that choice.. and in 1950, it was illegal. Lots of women were mutilated, lots of carnage, as you would put it, for maximum effect, lots of dead babies.

Rather than spinning the conversation off on the usual '10 points' dodges, try looking at it from a perspective of causality. 

What causes abortions? How do we control misuse of Abortions?

Fix that. Don't deny a basic human condition... work with facts, reality, cause; effect. 

[AKIron]

You want me to fix the basic human condition but would no doubt complain vehemently if I dictated terms of morality. There are consquences for imprudent behavior. I wouldn't have it any other way. An unborn human being should not be denied existence for the convenience of the mother or society. Perhaps if we make it less convenient to remove a mistake by killing a person some will act a little more prudently?

[Dago]

It's probably the concept of PC conditioning that's lead us here.. the issue has been packaged with such powerful and emotive words... most of the sheeple have no desire to really face the issue, so they take the easy way out and hop on the 'save the unborn babies' bandwagon.

Meanwhile, you and I and everyone else are really discussing the oncoming loss of ownership of our own corporal entities.

It's an exceptionally simple proposition, really.  The coming choice of the age and the final bastion of the fight for freedom is being waged around your body and it's parts... will YOU be allowed to decide when you can end your life? Will YOU be allowed the dignity to pass on on your terms? Will YOU be allowed to decide who, if anyone has rights to your component parts? Will YOU be allowed to decide what goes in or comes out of your body?

Will YOU be allowed to choose?

Gawdammit.. it's my body. Mine. I reserve all rights to it. Any attack on those rights, no matter what moral skirt you hang on it, is an attack against personal freedom. On the most basic level possible.

There's a LOT of money riding on this... think of the 'players'... think of who will be the winners... who will lose. It really is not about 'unborn babies'. It's about who owns you and everything relevant to the palpitating mass of flesh that IS you. Think it through... and shudder.

It's not about 'save the babies' It's about saving your rights to your body and all it contains.

If abortion is about "your" body and not the babies, then how about using suicide as a means to prevent an unplanned birth?

[Hangtime]

You want me to fix the basic human condition but would no doubt complain vehemently if I dictated terms of morality. There are consquences for imprudent behavior. I wouldn't have it any other way. An unborn human being should not be denied existence for the convenience of the mother or society. Perhaps if we make it less convenient to remove a mistake by killing a person some will act a little more prudently?

Another dodge.

You obviously are assuming that abortions are all about sluts being slutty and abusing the system. The sluts should be forced to have and raise the kids, because we need more useless people in bigger ghettos.

See how easy it is to pull the emotional trigger?

Again.. fix the cause, provide better options to people facing the choice.

[Hangtime]

If abortion is about "your" body and not the babies, then how about using suicide as a means to prevent an unplanned birth?

Should definitely be high up on the list of options.

[Gunthr]

t's probably the concept of PC conditioning that's lead us here.. the issue has been packaged with such powerful and emotive words... most of the sheeple have no desire to really face the issue, so they take the easy way out and hop on the 'save the unborn babies' bandwagon.

Meanwhile, you and I and everyone else are really discussing the oncoming loss of ownership of our own corporal entities.

It's an exceptionally simple proposition, really.  The coming choice of the age and the final bastion of the fight for freedom is being waged around your body and it's parts... will YOU be allowed to decide when you can end your life? Will YOU be allowed the dignity to pass on on your terms? Will YOU be allowed to decide who, if anyone has rights to your component parts? Will YOU be allowed to decide what goes in or comes out of your body?

Will YOU be allowed to choose?

Gawdammit.. it's my body. Mine. I reserve all rights to it. Any attack on those rights, no matter what moral skirt you hang on it, is an attack against personal freedom. On the most basic level possible.

There's a LOT of money riding on this... think of the 'players'... think of who will be the winners... who will lose. It really is not about 'unborn babies'. It's about who owns you and everything relevant to the palpitating mass of flesh that IS you. Think it through... and shudder.

It's not about 'save the babies' It's about saving your rights to your body and all it contains. - Hangtime

Hangtime, bear with me as I try to clarify my own thoughts on this.

you said somewhere that you are against abortion on a personal level.  Do you mind explaining why?

Do you believe an "abortion survivor" is a person the moment it is free of the mother?


  

[WWhiskey]

So... vote Democrat and get handed a bunch of stuff you don't deserve? 

no , no you got it backwards,
vote democrat, and hand over a bunch of stuff you don't deserve!

[AKIron]

Another dodge.

You obviously are assuming that abortions are all about sluts being slutty and abusing the system. The sluts should be forced to have and raise the kids, because we need more useless people in bigger ghettos.

See how easy it is to pull the emotional trigger?

Again.. fix the cause, provide better options to people facing the choice.

I'm willing to bet that abortion as a result of rape, incest, or a life threatening situation for the mother represents less than 1 million of those 40 million aborted since roe v wade, probably much less.

What's left? I'll define slutty behavior as sex outside of marriage. How would you define it? I'll also define an unwanted pregnancy within marriage as poor planning. However, none of these justify murdering someone. If a woman won't control her own body there's always adoption.

[Hangtime]

Hangtime, bear with me as I try to clarify my own thoughts on this.

Don't you mean 'bear with me while I sharpen my knife.. the one I'm gonna use to cut yer balls off depending on how you answer the following..."

you said somewhere that you are against abortion on a personal level.  Do you mind explaining why?
 

I have never been comfortable with killing... wanton, senseless death is not something any sane individual can countenance outside of extreme circumstances.... often not even IN extreme circumstances. There are people no longer walking on this planet thanks to my direct actions. Vis-a-vis, I've been able to contribute to the population growth thanks to my preemptive actions previous to that chain of events. Is a soldier a murderer when he kills in the process of preserving his own life? Allow me to sharpen MY knife while you ponder the answer to that question.

Moving on... my daughter was raped when she was 12. Thank god she was not impregnated by that act. Had she been I would have recommended an abortion. My wife was in complete agreement. She's now 25, happily married, and is due to deliver my grandaughter in the next few days. She's definitely pro-choice... how is it a woman, about to deliver, can still defend a pro-choice stand? I'll have to ask her someday.

Do you believe an "abortion survivor" is a person the moment it is free of the mother?
 

A viable infant, in or out of the mother is a 'person'... that's my opinion; don't know if it's defenseable.

[Hangtime]

However, none of these justify murdering someone. If a woman won't control her own body there's always adoption.

That's an option that needs massive redesign... and it should get fair play. Society should be expending more effort in this area... a LOT more. Remove the social and societal roadblocks for unwed mothers to pursue this, you'll likely make the biggest impact on the murder rate of unborn viable infants.

[AKIron]

That's an option that needs massive redesign... and it should get fair play. Society should be expending more effort in this area... a LOT more. Remove the social and societal roadblocks for unwed mothers to pursue this, you'll likely make the biggest impact on the murder rate of unborn viable infants.

I may be wrong but I don't believe any unwilling mother in the US would have the least bit of trouble giving up her child for adoption.

[Gunthr]

Don't you mean 'bear with me while I sharpen my knife.. the one I'm gonna use to cut yer balls off depending on how you answer the following..."

naah.  I'm just looking for the smallest common denominator in my own views on this.  but I ain't saying I wouldn't point out an inconsistancy on your part

I have never been comfortable with killing... wanton, senseless death is not something any sane individual can countenance outside of extreme circumstances.... often not even IN extreme circumstances. There are people no longer walking on this planet thanks to my direct actions. Vis-a-vis, I've been able to contribute to the population growth thanks to my preemptive actions previous to that chain of events. Is a soldier a murderer when he kills in the process of preserving his own life? Allow me to sharpen MY knife while you ponder the answer to that question.

You are referring to the killing human being(s) that are indisputeably conferred human rights.  I wanted you to talk about the killing of human fetuses, and why you are against it on a personal level.  I think you said that somewhere in this thread, or another (correct me if I'm wrong about that)

Is a soldier a murderer when he kills in the process of preserving his own life?

I don't believe ANYONE is guilty of murder if killing a person is necessary in self defense of their own life.  Homocide, yes. murder, with malice aforethought - no.

A viable infant, in or out of the mother is a 'person'... that's my opinion; don't know if it's defenseable.

well, lets see if its defensible.  I have these questions...

1. what do you mean by viable?  
2. if a fetus becomes a person when it is born, it seems that "viability" would be moot.  the new person is entitled, and the doctor would be obligated, to give all emergency care to save the human life, wouldn't he?  (If you are taken to the emergency room with trouble breathing, the doctors wouldn't make you pass a viability test... as a person you would be entitled to emergency care even if doctors think you might not make it.)

[FrodeMk3]

While in itself not a total end to the moral argument...There is another take on it. Countries' like China and India, even despite having restrictive laws actually governing their population (China does, at least, have both enforced sterilization and mandatory abortion. India, ASFAIK, doesn't have such draconian measures in place) Are still growing at a rapid rate. India's population, which was just 350 million in 1947, at the time of their separation from the British empire, grew to an astounding 1.2 billion by 2001. And, both of these countries, per capita, are basically poverty-level, partly due to an over-abundance of workers, coupled with a lower standard of education (due to simply having too many people to teach.)

Now, I bring up this issue during your morality arguments' simply because it wouldn't really be unthinkable for the U.S. to find itself in the same boat in 50 years-maybe less, with immigration factored in. Especially if a lot of that immigration comes' from cultures' that emphasize large/unrestricted families. Roe vs. Wade might just be the tip of the iceberg for us.

http://economics.about.com/cs/moffattentries/a/birth_plan.htm

http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/indiapopulation.htm

[Hangtime]

well, lets see if its defensible.  I have these questions...

1. what do you mean by viable? 
2. if a fetus becomes a person when it is born, it seems that "viability" would be moot.  the new person is entitled, and the doctor would be obligated, to give all emergency care to save the human life, wouldn't he?  (If you are taken to the emergency room with trouble breathing, the doctors wouldn't make you pass a viability test... as a person you would be entitled to emergency care even if doctors think you might not make it.)

1. I dunno... it's a hugely important question, but the experts seem to disagree. To me, a simple sod, and a man to boot, I'd have to defer in respect to the answer provided by my wife... '20 weeks'. She's unable (or unwilling) to discuss it further. As I recall, most hospitals indicate that at less than 22 weeks gestation and the fetus will likely not survive outside the womb regardless of the effort expended by the hospital.

2. Your describing the chinese method of abortion, or ??