Author Topic: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?  (Read 3425 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2008, 01:46:36 PM »
We gave Saddam months to withdraw from Kuwait. Then we gave him years to comply with his terms of surrender. Should we not be so generous to Russia?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Yeager

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2008, 01:50:33 PM »
your busy in your Desert Humvee safari, killing civilians.

 :aok
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Offline batdog

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2008, 01:58:31 PM »
The Amreekan Traitors have spoketh.

 :salute

Hey dudes. Russia.

WMD - Check
Crazy arse leader - Check
Threat to the USA - Check
Gots Oil - Check
Invaded/Occupied a soverign nation - Check

What the shreck are you waiting for big boys. Ah yes, your busy in your Desert Humvee safari, killing civilians.

Am I missing something here or did this diddly tard just call our boys civi killers?
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Hornet33

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2008, 02:02:31 PM »
He's looking at the grey area....holding a weapon they're insurgents and enemy combatants, drop the weapon and they're civilians....that's why our guys need to just kill everyone and be done with it.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline Obie303

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2008, 02:04:09 PM »
Am I missing something here or did this mask tard just call our boys civi killers?

Yeah, I saw that too.  Maniac, you might want to re-phrase what you said or better yet, delete that post!
I have fought a good fight,
I have finished my course,
I have kept the faith.
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2008, 02:05:31 PM »
Yeah, I saw that too.  Maniac, you might want to re-phrase what you said or better yet, delete that post!

He's a popsicle if he changes it.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Maniac

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2008, 02:06:10 PM »
Yeah, I saw that too.  Maniac, you might want to re-phrase what you said or better yet, delete that post!

Hey dude, ive seen the TV series.  :rofl

No point on deleting it, its quoted all over the place.
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2008, 02:08:38 PM »
We gave Saddam months to withdraw from Kuwait. Then we gave him years to comply with his terms of surrender. Should we not be so generous to Russia?

Unlike Saddam, they'll just take advantage of it. We turned our back on them since the early '90's, and now we have what is going on today. IMHO it's a mistake to do so.

Offline AKIron

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2008, 03:22:40 PM »
Unlike Saddam, they'll just take advantage of it. We turned our back on them since the early '90's, and now we have what is going on today. IMHO it's a mistake to do so.

Saddam took advantage of it too, he got spanked twice.

Spanking Russia will likely have severe global consequences. Not spanking them will too. I'd rather be damned for doing than damned for not doing.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2008, 04:34:26 PM »
Saddam took advantage of it too, he got spanked twice.

Spanking Russia will likely have severe global consequences. Not spanking them will too. I'd rather be damned for doing than damned for not doing.

I can't see where Iraq between 1991 and 2003 did anything to improve their chances' against another U.S. incursion, was my point. Russia, on the other hand, didn't quit developing weapons' post-Glasnost, like a lot of people thought they would. When trade started to open up, they were able to pick up some new tech, and assimilate it into some of their newer weapons, allowing them to advance under a cloak of what seemingly was friendship.

I don't for one minute pretend it will be a one-sided asskicking ala' GWI and II. But I do believe that we should have stepped in right away, and called Putins' bluff as soon as possible.

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2008, 08:36:32 PM »

I don't for one minute pretend it will be a one-sided asskicking ala' GWI and II. But I do believe that we should have stepped in right away, and called Putins' bluff as soon as possible.

I dunno... like Iraq 1 & 2, they have numbers on the ground, plenty of last generation armor. Unlike the Iraqi conflicts, they have a LOT of the best wheeled APC's in the business. They have decent close anti-air capabilities... at least initially. OTOH, Our attack heli's and armament is a generation ahead of theirs.

Where we have an 'edge', we have a big edge... Air Supremacy, and down low; force multipliers like the hellfire and javelins. Stealth. Night vision (in quantity), Communications. Our special teams are very good, as are theirs... but we got more of 'em. Our Arty and counter battery capabilities are second to none. Our ground troops, man for man are worth 10 of theirs in the field.

Given they have the 'home field' advantage, our logistics remain the biggest burden we'd carry... but the 'pipeline' is open, we're already essentially 'in theater' with a damn big assed assortment of regional basing options.

Our achilles heel at this point in time is the Naval picture. With russia's black sea fleet there.. and no US Fleet units to counter them, we're stymied. We need Poti.. logistics demands it, the russians know it.

All things considered, I'd say we could quickly overwhelm what assets they have on the ground in Georgia now, and assuming we can close down the two land routes into georgia, it'd be pretty much over... except for that damn russian fleet out there.. fast re-supply for them, and two ports right off the bat to work in on top of a not insignificant amphib deployment they've already made up in the NW.

If we see an American Task force move into the area... that could be a pretty strong indication of intent. Whadaya figure... coupla weeks before we know?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2008, 11:35:45 PM »
I dunno... like Iraq 1 & 2, they have numbers on the ground, plenty of last generation armor. Unlike the Iraqi conflicts, they have a LOT of the best wheeled APC's in the business. They have decent close anti-air capabilities... at least initially. OTOH, Our attack heli's and armament is a generation ahead of theirs.

Where we have an 'edge', we have a big edge... Air Supremacy, and down low; force multipliers like the hellfire and javelins. Stealth. Night vision (in quantity), Communications. Our special teams are very good, as are theirs... but we got more of 'em. Our Arty and counter battery capabilities are second to none. Our ground troops, man for man are worth 10 of theirs in the field.

Given they have the 'home field' advantage, our logistics remain the biggest burden we'd carry... but the 'pipeline' is open, we're already essentially 'in theater' with a damn big assed assortment of regional basing options.

Our achilles heel at this point in time is the Naval picture. With russia's black sea fleet there.. and no US Fleet units to counter them, we're stymied. We need Poti.. logistics demands it, the russians know it.

All things considered, I'd say we could quickly overwhelm what assets they have on the ground in Georgia now, and assuming we can close down the two land routes into georgia, it'd be pretty much over... except for that damn russian fleet out there.. fast re-supply for them, and two ports right off the bat to work in on top of a not insignificant amphib deployment they've already made up in the NW.

If we see an American Task force move into the area... that could be a pretty strong indication of intent. Whadaya figure... coupla weeks before we know?

It's hard to predict the diplomatic picture at this point. I'd like to say that The White House set's some kinda deadline for hard action, but will it be a week? Two weeks? A month or two? That's the big question IMHO.

I would like to point out that this is a different theatre than the middle east; It's harder to access even than Iraq or Afghanistan. Anything that could get there right now, and get there fast, will have to be airlifted. Also, for a rapid offensive through the desert, we were able to use our technological advantages' such as Laser/Thermal imaging, and High-speed Mechanized units' to their fullest. This campaign would be through Mountainous/Forested terrain. That might negate some of the long-range fights' we saw in the open desert, and the advantages' we enjoyed against Saddam's army technologically. You're right about the Black Sea fleet; If the Turks' even give us permission to get into the damn thing, It's not really an ideal place to put a CVBG. We will have an honest-to-god Naval threat, Not just a couple of missile boats, but Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, attack submarines, Cruise missile boats...All backed up by Russian Naval aviation in force. As far as what happens in the air...I'm under the impression that the Russians' sell all of their second-hand crap, and keep the best for themselves. They will have things' like the S-300 missile systems, and the SU-37's, etc. etc. And, their training is probably a lot better than most of the Third world countries' they sell to. I'm not sure what kind of aerial fight we could expect.

One last thing I would like to point out, Hang. To the best of my knowledge, No U.S. soldier has ever directly faced his Russian counterpart in combat. We're not talking about the same guys' that Saddam had to confiscate all of their white underclothing to try to keep them from surrendering as fast. These are the descendants' of those guys' that held tough at places like Leningrad and Stalingrad; That drove the Wehrmacht from the gates' of Moscow, back to the Reichstag in Berlin. I don't know how we could factor in their fighting spirit. They might all be like Boroda, and worship Putins' still-wet turds, for all I know. It's too much of an unknown.

It would definetaly be the toughest fight that this generations' yet to see.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:41:37 AM by FrodeMk3 »

Offline Yeager

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2008, 11:49:12 PM »
Anyone old enough to remember the standoff between Russian and American tanks at Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin 1961?  Then the Cuban missile crises.....geeze....finally get to go three for three I guess :confused:

"Ten of these tanks continued to Friedrichstraße, and stopped just 50 to 100 metres (50 to 100 yards) from the Checkpoint Charlie on the Soviet side of the sector boundary. The US tanks turned back towards the checkpoint, stopping an equal distance from it on the American side of the boundary. From 27 October 1961 at 17:00 until 28 October 1961 at about 11:00, the respective troops faced each other. As per standing orders, both groups of tanks were loaded with live munitions. The alert levels of the US Garrison in West Berlin, then NATO, and finally the US Strategic Air Command (SAC) were raised. Both groups of tanks had orders to fire if fired upon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_ultimatum
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Offline Suave

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2008, 10:28:52 PM »
Mutual defense treaties are what started the war to end all wars. What hogwash did washington push to get americans to send their sons into that meatgrinder? It would be nice for us working americans if we didn't have to pay for the military protection of western europe. Nato is washington's way of weilding influence in Europe. So now that Warsaw, formerly of the Warsaw Pact, is now well within Nato territory, washington needs reasons to justify the existence of Nato.

There was a good book written by retired general Zinny a couple of years ago that was basically about how washington and the pentagon still have not been able to make any real transition from a cold war aparatus.

And now for some Pat Buchanan.

Quote
The American people should be eternally grateful to Old Europe for having spiked the Bush-McCain plan to bring Georgia into NATO.

Had Georgia been in NATO when Mikheil Saakashvili invaded South Ossetia, we would be eyeball to eyeball with Russia, facing war in the Caucasus, where Moscow's superiority is as great as U.S. superiority in the Caribbean during the Cuban missile crisis.

If the Russia-Georgia war proves nothing else, it is the insanity of giving erratic hotheads in volatile nations the power to drag the United States into war.

From Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, U.S. presidents have sought to avoid shooting wars with Russia, even when the Bear was at its most beastly.

Truman refused to use force to break Stalin's Berlin blockade. Ike refused to intervene when the Butcher of Budapest drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. LBJ sat impotent as Leonid Brezhnev's tanks crushed the Prague Spring. Jimmy Carter's response to Brezhnev's invasion of Afghanistan was to boycott the Moscow Olympics. When Brezhnev ordered his Warsaw satraps to crush Solidarity and shot down a South Korean airliner killing scores of U.S. citizens, including a congressman, Reagan did — nothing.

These presidents were not cowards. They simply would not go to war when no vital U.S. interest was at risk to justify a war. Yet, had George W. Bush prevailed and were Georgia in NATO, U.S. Marines could be fighting Russian troops over whose flag should fly over a province of 70,000 South Ossetians who prefer Russians to Georgians.

The arrogant folly of the architects of U.S. post-Cold War policy is today on display. By bringing three ex-Soviet republics into NATO, we have moved the U.S. red line for war from the Elbe almost to within artillery range of the old Leningrad.

Should America admit Ukraine into NATO, Yalta, vacation resort of the czars, will be a NATO port and Sevastopol, traditional home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, will become a naval base for the U.S. Sixth Fleet. This is altogether a bridge too far.

And can we not understand how a Russian patriot like Vladimir Putin would be incensed by this U.S. encirclement after Russia shed its empire and sought our friendship? How would Andy Jackson have reacted to such crowding by the British Empire?

As of 1991, the oil of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan belonged to Moscow.
Can we not understand why Putin would smolder as avaricious Yankees built pipelines to siphon the oil and gas of the Caspian Basin through breakaway Georgia to the West?

For a dozen years, Putin & Co. watched as U.S. agents helped to dump over regimes in Ukraine and Georgia that were friendly to Moscow.

If Cold War II is coming, who started it, if not us?

The swift and decisive action of Putin's army in running the Georgian forces out of South Ossetia in 24 hours after Saakashvili began his barrage and invasion suggests Putin knew exactly what Saakashvili was up to and dropped the hammer on him.

What did we know? Did we know Georgia was about to walk into Putin's trap? Did we not see the Russians lying in wait north of the border? Did we give Saakashvili a green light?

Joe Biden ought to be conducting public hearings on who caused this U.S. humiliation.

The war in Georgia has exposed the dangerous overextension of U.S. power. There is no way America can fight a war with Russia in the Caucasus with our army tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nor should we. Hence, it is demented to be offering, as John McCain and Barack Obama are, NATO membership to Tbilisi.

The United States must decide whether it wants a partner in a flawed Russia or a second Cold War. For if we want another Cold War, we are, by cutting Russia out of the oil of the Caspian and pushing NATO into her face, going about it exactly the right way.

Vladimir Putin is no Stalin. He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation's primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.

A resurgent Russia is no threat to any vital interests of the United States. It is a threat to an American Empire that presumes some God-given right to plant U.S. military power in the backyard or on the front porch of Mother Russia.

Who rules Abkhazia and South Ossetia is none of our business. And after this madcap adventure of Saakashvili, why not let the people of these provinces decide their own future in plebiscites conducted by the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe?

As for Saakashvili, he's probably toast in Tbilisi after this stunt. Let the neocons find him an endowed chair at the American Enterprise Institute.

To find out more about Patrick Buchanan, and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate web page at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2008 CREATORS SYNDICATE INC.


Offline Suave

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2008, 10:51:28 PM »
Talking about going to war with russia is drooling idiocy. The only conventional war that the US and Russia will fight will be after the nuclear war. The russian attitude is that the best way to protect their missles is to launch them. The soviets used to muse that americans watch too many old western movies, where the fight culminates in a showdown at the end. Russian westerns would be very short movies.