Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?

[Hangtime]

Talking about going to war with russia is drooling idiocy. The only conventional war that the US and Russia will fight will be after the nuclear war. The russian attitude is that the best way to protect their missles is to launch them. The soviets used to muse that americans watch too many old western movies, where the fight culminates in a showdown at the end. Russian westerns would be very short movies.

LOL... Too Late. The decision all along has been above presidential pay grades. Globalist Multi-National Corporations have already decided they need a cold war to keep the euro, american and russian economies.... err.. profits growing.

Get used to that sword hangin over your head.

[FrodeMk3]

To start with, It appears' that Pat Buchanan has just destroyed any remaining shreds of political validity he might have had.

For, he completely forgot that we let not just an ally nation, but a partner in our own global war on terror down in a time of crisis. Remember, Georgia contributed 2,000 of their own sons' and daughters' to the occupation of Iraq. Not rushing to their aid when THEY needed help is sadly reminiscent of the way Neville Chamberlain handled Poland in 1939.

Now, I will not debate that a fight with Russia isn't the same as any other that we've faced in modern times...However, the MAD doctrine worked for more than 50 years. Why? Is it possible that the Russians' are just as afraid of a Nuclear war as we are?

I do believe any conventional conflict with Russia in the case of Georgia could be resolved without the use of Nuclear weapons, IF:

1. Fighting is confined to Georgia/Ossetia/Azkhaban, and that diplomatic channels are kept open assuring the Russians' that no direct invasion of Soviet territory will occur.

2. That if the Russians' choose to expand the conflict, say, to the North sea, Poland, or the Ukraine, that we also contain any such conflict until a peace accord can be reached.

3. When at the cessation of any such conflict, do not demand anything more than the simple enforcement of the pre-war status of national boundaries, as recognized in the U.N.-That is, Ossetia and Azkhaban remain Georgian.

4. Any further Russian demands, such as the removal of the missile shield, or no NATO control of areas' such as the Black Sea, should be contingent upon any attempted 'widening of the conflict'.

5. Don't make it impossible for the Russians' to re-integrate into the world after any such conflict. They will feel the pressure economically after a while, now that they have opened up post-Glasnost, and that the sooner they quit fighting, the sooner it will be business as usual.

BTW, Suave...the only 'drooling idiocy' will not be standing up to them. Letting them do this destroys' everything that has happened since 1989. Obviously, the Russian's have a regime in Putin that can eclipse their own constitution. Allowing this to continue only shows' the Russian people that somone like Putin can be allowed to be reckless and carefree in his dealings' with the rest of the world. And I will end it with this...When NATO was formed, this country gave it's word, that it would help to keep the free peoples' of the world out from under the heel of totalitarianism and despots. And the last I've heard, we still aim to keep that word. We definetely shouldn't break it because some sweetheartbag neo-con is afraid of fighting something more intimidating than 500,000 Iraqi soldiers trying to surrender en masse.

[Rich46yo]

I can't see where Iraq between 1991 and 2003 did anything to improve their chances' against another U.S. incursion, was my point. Russia, on the other hand, didn't quit developing weapons' post-Glasnost, like a lot of people thought they would. When trade started to open up, they were able to pick up some new tech, and assimilate it into some of their newer weapons, allowing them to advance under a cloak of what seemingly was friendship.

I don't for one minute pretend it will be a one-sided asskicking ala' GWI and II. But I do believe that we should have stepped in right away, and called Putins' bluff as soon as possible.

The Russians are so outgunned by NATO they would be out of their skulls to start a war in Continental Europe.

Most of their domestic military money spent has been on their nuclear forces, which they cant use because if they did they would end up an ash tray. Its true theyv developed some decent systems but even most of them they try and sell. They are not capable of attacking and defeating NATO.

If we stood up to The Soviet Union you think we would blink to whats now called Russia?

[FrodeMk3]

The Russians are so outgunned by NATO they would be out of their skulls to start a war in Continental Europe.

Most of their domestic military money spent has been on their nuclear forces, which they cant use because if they did they would end up an ash tray. Its true theyv developed some decent systems but even most of them they try and sell. They are not capable of attacking and defeating NATO.

If we stood up to The Soviet Union you think we would blink to whats now called Russia?

Why did we back down from them then? That's been the big question on my mind ever since Aug. 10th.

[Hangtime]

Why did we back down from them then? That's been the big question on my mind ever since Aug. 10th.

Germany was expected to be the first european battlefield.. and NATO didn't expect to be able to stop the Russian Armor. The concept of Tactical Nukes was born. The Germans shuddered, knowing if they couldn't stop the russians at the german Border, West Germany would become a nuclear wasteland. Germany redoubled it's efforts in anti-armor weaponry, tactics and advanced 'fire while maneuvering' tank force multipliers. In fact, in every 'reforager' war game we ran with them thru the early 70's, they kicked our butts convincingly.

We still deployed tactical nukes in the Saar and up by the Belgian Border. Europe would be defended, even at the cost of Germany. Reality that kept the Russians outta NATO countries: Tac Nukes are a big part of the NATO gameplan.

New Gamepalan now... Poland and the Baltics stand at risk of being 'where we stop 'em if they break thru...' As you might guess, they'd very much like to see Ukraine and Georgia in NATO; becoming the trip-wire battlefield, especially since we're gonna deploy a missile defense 'shield' (translate as tactical russian nuke target) in their backyards.

Only thing that'll keep the Russian and NATO nukes on the launchers is for Russia to NOT invade a NATO country.

Without that NATO Mutual Defense Treaty that Buchannan is whining about, Euro MAD won't work, and the Russians will invade, knowing the US itself won't reply by itself for fear a much larger unsurvivable conflagration involving American instead of European cities..

So, NATO better work, or Europe is toast.

[Rich46yo]

Why did we back down from them then? That's been the big question on my mind ever since Aug. 10th.

Why? Did you expect us to invade Russia over Georgia? Or the Georgian republics?

We had no legal obligation to come to their aid. But even still we sent American planes to their airports to deliver supplies. The supplies were meaningless. The presence of USAF aircraft on Georgian soil was not. It forced Putin to have to consider the implications of Americans coming under fire. We didnt blink. He did!

Different story if a NATO country was attacked. That would trigger the full fury of NATO, and most importantly, American military forces. It could also trigger, by accident or design, a nuclear war.

Putin knows this better then anyone. Remember NATO dismembered Iraqs military in Gulf 1 with an ease that shocked the world. We are far more Technologically advanced now. In the opening nights  High value Russian targets would be struck with thousands of precision munitions alone.

And NATO would win air superiority that bordered on dominance.

[FrodeMk3]

Why? Did you expect us to invade Russia over Georgia? Or the Georgian republics?

Have another look at my earlier post. Don't invade; Force the Russians' out of Georgia, same way we did in Kuwait. Don't take any Russian territory; Stop at the border, let them realize that the war is merely over Georgia-and that any broadening will get really expensive for Vlads' gov't.

We had no legal obligation to come to their aid. But even still we sent American planes to their airports to deliver supplies. The supplies were meaningless. The presence of USAF aircraft on Georgian soil was not. It forced Putin to have to consider the implications of Americans coming under fire. We didnt blink. He did!

First of all...Not legal, but certainly Moral. As I said, Georgia's been as staunch an ally to us as any, especially considering the controversy over the war in Iraq.

Secondly...There were already American troops, a training cadre, in country even before the balloon went up. What's more, Putin had to know about it, they've been there for months. He played GWB like the monkey he is. No, we not only blinked...we cringed.

Different story if a NATO country was attacked. That would trigger the full fury of NATO, and most importantly, American military forces. It could also trigger, by accident or design, a nuclear war.

Except in this instance, NATO's not directly involved, since Georgia's not a signatory yet. However, Europe's choices on whether or not to get involved might hinge on having stability in the regions' around the pipeline. They might prefer it in the hands of a pro-western gov't., especially in light of the recent developements in Moscow. Nobody knows' the Euro response, except the Euro's. As for triggering a wider nuclear war...as Hangtime has said before, It's not the first time it's been a factor. Hell, we ran that risk back in Korea. The Russians' have yet to escalate any crisis to a WMD stage. Neither have we.

Putin knows this better then anyone. Remember NATO dismembered Iraqs military in Gulf 1 with an ease that shocked the world. We are far more Technologically advanced now. In the opening nights  High value Russian targets would be struck with thousands of precision munitions alone.

And NATO would win air superiority that bordered on dominance.


This actually becomes conjecture, because as has also been said before, these are not the 'monkey models' that the old Soviets' gave to their Warsaw pact satellite's and their arms' customers abroad. All their good stuff, they kept for themselves. AFAIK, None of our aircraft have yet to encounter any of the home-based Sukhoi's or the MiG's the Russians' keep for themselves. And the S-300 missile systems' are just now starting to be seen abroad. We shouldn't make any assumptions' based on the GWI or II experience either, because Iraqi training of the time can't really be considered up to the same par as the Russian's themselves. The russian's will be better motivated, and better trained, than any third-world or Middle-eastern enemy's we've yet to face. It wouldn't be an easy fight, that much should be understood.

[john9001]

10 US and NATO war ships are in the black sea, 8 more are on the way,they are to deliver aid to Georgia ports, 1 or 2 US ships have already docked in Georgia. The russians are disturbed that we are using war ships to deliver aid.


disturbed....

[Maniac]

MOSCOW - Russia formally recognized the breakaway Georgian territories at the heart of its war with Georgia on Tuesday, heightening tensions with the West as the United States dispatched a military ship bearing aid to a port city still patrolled by Russian troops.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says the decision to recognize the independence of two breakaway regions in Georgia is "extremely unfortunate."

She said the U.S. regards Abkhazia and South Ossetia as "part of the internationally recognized borders of Georgia" and will use its veto power in the U.N. Security Council to block any Russian attempt change their status.

Britain, Germany and France also criticized the decision.

The plot thickens.

[Dowding]

The plot thickens.

UK Foreign Secretary's words:

He said the move "further inflames an already tense situation" adding: "We fully support Georgia's independence and territorial integrity, which cannot be changed by decree from Moscow."

The foreign secretary said he would visit Ukraine on Wednesday to assemble the "widest possible coalition against Russian aggression".

Interesting choice of words - coalitions have generally meant only one thing in recent years.

[Hangtime]

ruh roh.

Is it possible? A 'coalition'?

Damn. I sure hope the russians blink first this time.

Think they will?

[Rich46yo]

Have another look at my earlier post. Don't invade; Force the Russians' out of Georgia, same way we did in Kuwait. Don't take any Russian territory; Stop at the border, let them realize that the war is merely over Georgia-and that any broadening will get really expensive for Vlads' gov't.

And what if they dont like the fact we just killed 2,000 of their sons doing it? I imagine that would really piss em off, and it wouldnt do us much good with so many of our boys deployed in other hot spots. And the rest of NATO? Even the Brits would tell us were daffy and to bugger off. They dont enjoy their kids coming home in coffins for silly reasons either.

First of all...Not legal, but certainly Moral. As I said, Georgia's been as staunch an ally to us as any, especially considering the controversy over the war in Iraq.

Secondly...There were already American troops, a training cadre, in country even before the balloon went up. What's more, Putin had to know about it, they've been there for months. He played GWB like the monkey he is. No, we not only blinked...we cringed.

"Staunch ally"? Like who? Like the Brits? Gee yathink they are using us as an ally to offset Russian influence or do you think they just plain love Americans? And we have Yank training "cadres" "comrade" all over the world. In countries youv never heard of. So are we supposed to go to war every time violence flairs in everyone of those countries? Especially against another nuclear power? Use your bloody head dude. Real war aint plaing Aces High.

Except in this instance, NATO's not directly involved, since Georgia's not a signatory yet. However, Europe's choices on whether or not to get involved might hinge on having stability in the regions' around the pipeline. They might prefer it in the hands of a pro-western gov't., especially in light of the recent developements in Moscow. Nobody knows' the Euro response, except the Euro's. As for triggering a wider nuclear war...as Hangtime has said before, It's not the first time it's been a factor. Hell, we ran that risk back in Korea. The Russians' have yet to escalate any crisis to a WMD stage. Neither have we.

Exactly! Georgia is NOT a signatory yet. And I know exactly NATOs reasons, I know the reason every NATO country has. They dont want their kids coming home in coffins, risking a major war with a nuclear power, then having to pay for it all, all over a border flareup between former Soviets clients. Besides ,last time I checked, all this wasnt a threat to America in the first place.

Frodo do you have former military service? Do you have kids in the military who'd be on the front line of this great endeavor of yours?

This actually becomes conjecture, because as has also been said before, these are not the 'monkey models' that the old Soviets' gave to their Warsaw pact satellite's and their arms' customers abroad. All their good stuff, they kept for themselves. AFAIK, None of our aircraft have yet to encounter any of the home-based Sukhoi's or the MiG's the Russians' keep for themselves. And the S-300 missile systems' are just now starting to be seen abroad. We shouldn't make any assumptions' based on the GWI or II experience either, because Iraqi training of the time can't really be considered up to the same par as the Russian's themselves. The russian's will be better motivated, and better trained, than any third-world or Middle-eastern enemy's we've yet to face. It wouldn't be an easy fight, that much should be understood.

I dont see the average Ruskie being to enthused about attacking NATO. While fearless in defense of the motherland hes probably going to be less enthused about taking on a 21'st century force that outnumbers him almost 3 to 1. Most off all if when the crazy Yanks show up with their invisible airplanes, shells that hunt on their own, lunatics that can all see in the dark, and bloody phasers and photon torpedoes.

But thats only part of it. Where we really have them edged is in the field of battle space management and information technology. In short, we will know where they are while they will have to guess a lot more. And radars dont do you much good Frodo when your troops are to afraid to turn them on.

If you had any knowledge at all of the current state of systems and readiness vis-a-vis NATO vs Russia you never would have made the statement you did. And like I said, if you are so keen for this war then march your kid down to the recruiters before he/she misses it.

[john9001]

"if you are so keen for this war then march your kid down to the recruiters before he/she misses it."

i did not know you could "march your kid to the recruiters", i thought they had to volunteer.

[Hangtime]

ummm...

seems that the pipelines that run outside of direct russian control are the real focus of russian hostility.

We need to preserve that route to preserve some degree of independence for eastern europe. Lose georgia, lose eastern europe.

If that's what russia is focusing on... shouldn't we also?

[Rich46yo]

"if you are so keen for this war then march your kid down to the recruiters before he/she misses it."

i did not know you could "march your kid to the recruiters", i thought they had to volunteer.

Thanks John. For your Intellectual contribution to the thread.

No really, thank you.