Author Topic: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?  (Read 3389 times)

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2008, 11:38:30 AM »
ruh roh.

Is it possible? A 'coalition'?

Damn. I sure hope the russians blink first this time.

Think they will?



The real question is, is how do they blink? Do they stand down, or let the situation escalate?

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2008, 11:43:34 AM »
The real question is, is how do they blink? Do they stand down, or let the situation escalate?

Dunno, Frode. Looks to me like the real ball handling needs to be done by NATO... I'm seeing England making the appropriate noises, Poland and the Baltics are on board for a stiff resistance to the Bears threat, dunno how France, Germany or Italy will come down on this.

Turkey is passing thru NATO ships into the Black Sea... looks like a fresh cold war building, with status quo maintained in Georgia.
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2008, 12:38:47 PM »
The real question is, is how do they blink? Do they stand down, or let the situation escalate?

I don't think they will without significant concessions leave the 2 rebellious territories they have taken. Certainly they considered this before invading. I see the question as what will we do about it. The ball is in our court.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2008, 12:58:10 PM »
And what if they dont like the fact we just killed 2,000 of their sons doing it? I imagine that would really piss em off, and it wouldnt do us much good with so many of our boys deployed in other hot spots. And the rest of NATO? :lol Even the Brits would tell us were daffy and to bugger off. They dont enjoy their kids coming home in coffins for silly reasons either.

They'll be pissed at the very first soldier wounded or Killed by direct American fire, IMO.

In the other 'Georgia invaded' threads, I've already stated how ridiculous our worldwide situation is, and how Putin played us as to our possible response. However, someone else mentioned that only a partial fraction of our forces are actually committed to the Middle east. Apparently, we still have considerable reserves' Here in the U.S. And, if you look at Dowding's post above, that might be an indicator of Britain's intent. I mean, if they helped us with something as farcical and inane as Iraq, I don't see them saying no to something like stemming Russian aggression in it's Pre-natal stage.


"Staunch ally"? Like who? Like the Brits? Gee yathink they are using us as an ally to offset Russian influence or do you think they just plain love Americans? And we have Yank training "cadres" "comrade" all over the world. In countries youv never heard of. So are we supposed to go to war every time violence flairs in everyone of those countries? Especially against another nuclear power? Use your bloody head dude. Real war aint plaing Aces High.

Donating 2,000 men to another's cause, in what's been an un-popular war, might be mistaken for being an 'ally' by people who have any kind of moral grounding. We have went a long way for other countries (like Kuwait) That had nothing more than embassy guards' in place. What is the difference between the two? They have both asked for our help. BTW, this isn't mere social strife, such as what's seen in Pakistan, or Iraq today. This is a regular set-piece invasion of another country...and yes, a U.S. ally, albeit outside of NATO. How hard would GWB's "War On Terror" be if all of the nations' currently helping us suddenly picked up their collective balls' and went home? Perhaps, after seeing how we treat our allies' in their time of need?

I am glad that the prospect of a real fight worries' you (as it does me) Rich. If this conflict is a lot smaller than what it has seemed, and the Russian's finally agree to the terms' of the Treaty and move out of the areas they currently occupy, that would be the best possible outcome. But letting them get away with whatever they want to could cost many more, possibly american, lives down the road. Fighting a smaller fight now might prevent the larger one later.

Exactly! Georgia is NOT a signatory yet. And I know exactly NATOs reasons, I know the reason every NATO country has. They dont want their kids coming home in coffins, risking a major war with a nuclear power, then having to pay for it all, all over a border flareup between former Soviets clients. Besides ,last time I checked, all this wasnt a threat to America in the first place.

Frodo do you have former military service? Do you have kids in the military who'd be on the front line of this great endeavor of yours?

From the moment they themselves put Ink on the paper making them NATO signatories, every country that signed has had that threat. And did have, for over half a century. And if you wish to put it in the context of threats...Saddam Hussein was a threat to his Arab neighbors, and perhaps the Kurds' that live on the Turkish/Iraq/Iran border. But not to the U.S...We could have handled him WAY differently, actually to our advantage in the WOT. But we invaded anyway. I don't think being a threat to the U.S. has any context anymore.

BTW, no, I haven't ever been in our Armed Forces. I could not show you a DD-214. and my oldest son is only 13. I'm not gonna hide behind an internet persona on this. But I am a citizen of the United States of America, and as such, I will try to uphold any future calling my country makes of me, and God willing, It's for a good cause.


I dont see the average Ruskie being to enthused about attacking NATO. While fearless in defense of the motherland hes probably going to be less enthused about taking on a 21'st century force that outnumbers him almost 3 to 1. Most off all if when the crazy Yanks show up with their invisible airplanes, shells that hunt on their own, lunatics that can all see in the dark, and bloody phasers and photon torpedoes.

But thats only part of it. Where we really have them edged is in the field of battle space management and information technology. In short, we will know where they are while they will have to guess a lot more. And radars dont do you much good Frodo when your troops are to afraid to turn them on.

If you had any knowledge at all of the current state of systems and readiness vis-a-vis NATO vs Russia you never would have made the statement you did. And like I said, if you are so keen for this war then march your kid down to the recruiters before he/she misses it.

Unlike you , I do harbor doubts' about our superiority over the Russians, both technically and numerically. As I've stated, and has been said before, The Russian's did give their W-P allies' and client states their best hardware. The MiG's they sell do not have the over-the-horizon capabilities' that their own stuff has. They don't put all of their latest laser rangerfinders, Thermal sights, or other goodies' on the T-72's they sell abroad. They don't even ship them the good Ammo!

Americans' have been really bad about judging the Russian military by it's satellite nations' performance against people like Isreal, or How we did in the Gulf Wars. This is a misconception that is someday gonna come home to roost, in a bad way. And, why are you so against any action in Georgia, if you are so confident of our superiority, anyway???

« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 01:00:02 PM by FrodeMk3 »

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2008, 02:00:51 PM »
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They'll be pissed at the very first soldier wounded or Killed by direct American fire, IMO.

In the other 'Georgia invaded' threads, I've already stated how ridiculous our worldwide situation is, and how Putin played us as to our possible response. However, someone else mentioned that only a partial fraction of our forces are actually committed to the Middle east. Apparently, we still have considerable reserves' Here in the U.S. And, if you look at Dowding's post above, that might be an indicator of Britain's intent. I mean, if they helped us with something as farcical and inane as Iraq, I don't see them saying no to something like stemming Russian aggression in it's Pre-natal stage.

Thats right, only a fraction. But they are still important units that cant leave their posts. And Putin knows what we have available, what NATO has available. This is a NATO matter, not an "American" one. Its in their backyard and any decisions must be made by NATO and not just America.

Look at it this way. Nations, especially unfriendly ones, speak in symbols, in abstracts. Russia going into this wretched helpless country was a "symbol". The fact that Yank USAF planes and USN ships are delivering supplies instead of commercial ones is also a "symbol". And its a warning.

We fought and stood up to an Empire far worse then Putins Russia and we did it on every continent in the world. I spent 4 years on ground zero myself and none of thats going to change. But that doesnt mean we are going to act precipitously and start a major war without just reason. And Putin stopping where he did was also a symbol, as was the fact neither of us raised our DEFCON levels.

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Donating 2,000 men to another's cause, in what's been an un-popular war, might be mistaken for being an 'ally' by people who have any kind of moral grounding. We have went a long way for other countries (like Kuwait) That had nothing more than embassy guards' in place. What is the difference between the two? They have both asked for our help. BTW, this isn't mere social strife, such as what's seen in Pakistan, or Iraq today. This is a regular set-piece invasion of another country...and yes, a U.S. ally, albeit outside of NATO. How hard would GWB's "War On Terror" be if all of the nations' currently helping us suddenly picked up their collective balls' and went home? Perhaps, after seeing how we treat our allies' in their time of need?

No problem. Are you old enough to join? Are you a veteran? How about a child you can donate to your great crusade? PS, we "need" the freaking oil coming out of the Persian Gulf. I guess you didnt know that till now.

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I am glad that the prospect of a real fight worries' you (as it does me) Rich. If this conflict is a lot smaller than what it has seemed, and the Russian's finally agree to the terms' of the Treaty and move out of the areas they currently occupy, that would be the best possible outcome. But letting them get away with whatever they want to could cost many more, possibly american, lives down the road. Fighting a smaller fight now might prevent the larger one later.

:pray..... We cant sacrafice our kids without just reason. Americas, or NATOs, safety or vital interests must be in serious threat.

When those buildings came down we were under serious threat. When Saddam wanted to control 1/2 the worlds oil we were under serious threat to our vital interests. When Saddam said "screw you" again we were under serious threat. Georgia's provinces, at this stage of the game, just doesnt cut to that level. In fact, its not even close.

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BTW, no, I haven't ever been in our Armed Forces. I could not show you a DD-214. and my oldest son is only 13. I'm not gonna hide behind an internet persona on this. But I am a citizen of the United States of America, and as such, I will try to uphold any future calling my country makes of me, and God willing, It's for a good cause.

I aint "hideing" behind anything and dont get stupid. Im only one of many veterans in this game so big deal. My point is I dont believe you. And right now your just getting computer game rediculous. I would in no way allow my kid to go to Georgia to fight for those reasons and I wouldnt support a President who did.

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Unlike you , I do harbor doubts' about our superiority over the Russians, both technically and numerically. As I've stated, and has been said before, The Russian's did give their W-P allies' and client states their best hardware. The MiG's they sell do not have the over-the-horizon capabilities' that their own stuff has. They don't put all of their latest laser rangerfinders, Thermal sights, or other goodies' on the T-72's they sell abroad. They don't even ship them the good Ammo!

Americans' have been really bad about judging the Russian military by it's satellite nations' performance against people like Isreal, or How we did in the Gulf Wars. This is a misconception that is someday gonna come home to roost, in a bad way. And, why are you so against any action in Georgia, if you are so confident of our superiority, anyway???

Unlike you I know something of what Im talking about. What good is "over the horizen" When the fighter your looking for has the radar return of a fly, and has 2 missiles hitting you long before you even know hes there? Or when the enemy AWACS sees you from 3 horizens away? Or when your command staff and foward fighter base was taken out by opening night strikes and your central radar command is a smoking ruin? Your army cant move or be resupplied cause the bridges are blown out?

What good is a tank laser when the Yanks are shooting off artillary with warheads that seek and detroy tanks on their own? Or when the tank that kills you is on the other side of a mountain and his shell rides the laser designating you by the infantryman hideing 1,000 yrds away?

So you may "harbor doubts" but I bet the Russians dont.
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Offline john9001

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »
rich, why do you keep calling my Marines "kids" , they are men, trained to fight.

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Offline Hangtime

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2008, 03:51:55 PM »
Yes they are, men and women; trained to fight.

I too was a soldier once, and young... (to steal a great book title) And now I'm a lot older. An 'old man' to your young marines... and they are kids to me. It's not intended as a slight; just an acknowledgment of the disparity of age.

As 'old men' and thru the goggles of that age divide we see a young life, just getting started. The promise of the future is carried by these kids.. these brave young men and women.. and we do not intend to disparage or demean their abilities or competence by the reference of 'Kids'.

Just as your kids refer to us age worn vets as 'old men'... no disrespect intended.

Carry On.

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...at home, or abroad.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2008, 04:35:52 PM »
Thats right, only a fraction. But they are still important units that cant leave their posts. And Putin knows what we have available, what NATO has available. This is a NATO matter, not an "American" one. Its in their backyard and any decisions must be made by NATO and not just America.

Look at it this way. Nations, especially unfriendly ones, speak in symbols, in abstracts. Russia going into this wretched helpless country was a "symbol". The fact that Yank USAF planes and USN ships are delivering supplies instead of commercial ones is also a "symbol". And its a warning.

We fought and stood up to an Empire far worse then Putins Russia and we did it on every continent in the world. I spent 4 years on ground zero myself and none of thats going to change. But that doesnt mean we are going to act precipitously and start a major war without just reason. And Putin stopping where he did was also a symbol, as was the fact neither of us raised our DEFCON levels.

No problem. Are you old enough to join? Are you a veteran? How about a child you can donate to your great crusade? PS, we "need" the freaking oil coming out of the Persian Gulf. I guess you didnt know that till now.

:pray..... We cant sacrafice our kids without just reason. Americas, or NATOs, safety or vital interests must be in serious threat.

When those buildings came down we were under serious threat. When Saddam wanted to control 1/2 the worlds oil we were under serious threat to our vital interests. When Saddam said "screw you" again we were under serious threat. Georgia's provinces, at this stage of the game, just doesnt cut to that level. In fact, its not even close.

I aint "hideing" behind anything and dont get stupid. Im only one of many veterans in this game so big deal. My point is I dont believe you. And right now your just getting computer game rediculous. I would in no way allow my kid to go to Georgia to fight for those reasons and I wouldnt support a President who did.

Unlike you I know something of what Im talking about. What good is "over the horizen" When the fighter your looking for has the radar return of a fly, and has 2 missiles hitting you long before you even know hes there? Or when the enemy AWACS sees you from 3 horizens away? Or when your command staff and foward fighter base was taken out by opening night strikes and your central radar command is a smoking ruin? Your army cant move or be resupplied cause the bridges are blown out?

What good is a tank laser when the Yanks are shooting off artillary with warheads that seek and detroy tanks on their own? Or when the tank that kills you is on the other side of a mountain and his shell rides the laser designating you by the infantryman hideing 1,000 yrds away?

So you may "harbor doubts" but I bet the Russians dont.

There's some things' in here that looked contradictory to me. For example...Georgia, even though it has appealed to NATO for membership, isn't a member yet. The troops' they contributed to Iraq are not for a NATO coalition; It's for one that the U.S. has set up. Therefore, how could it be any matter BUT an american one right now? I see what you mean by the usage of the U.S. military to move in humanitarian aid. That could be construed as simply not having any commercial/civilian means available, to either reach the location, or be willing to go into a combat zone, however.

I'm not convinced that even the old USSR was any worse than the current regime in Russia, simply because of the fact that although he had to step down from the Presidency, Vladimir Putin was able to sidestep his countries' constitution and democratically elected gov't. and created a position for himself that allowed him to remain effectively in power. Letting him expand, and bring back all of those nations' under his influence, would be a very bad idea, IMHO. These actions' will also bring nations' like Iran under his wing, which, if you are worried about Middle-Eastern oil, is more than going to offset anything we have accomplished in Iraq. The Russian's could aid the Iranians' in they're nuclear ambitions, which could mean ALOT more trouble for us than any threat even Al-Queada poses. "We" don't really need their oil. The U.S. chooses' to remain tied to petroleum, mainly because of a large interest that certain sectors of our own economy have in it. The electric power grids' in the U.S. could have been run off of safe Nuclear power for the past few decades, which would have dramatically reduced our dependence on oil from the Middle East. Yet, we choose to let ourselves be dependent, strategically vulnerable. Why? Because a dollar in a politician's pocket speaks' a louder voice than any 10 U.S. citizens. Europe, which includes the NATO nations which we are sworn by treaty to come to their aid, are under threat of an Energy crisis if the pipelines' running through Georgia are compromised. So, if you look at it from the aspect of needing energy...This isn't only for Georgia, but for our allies, too. While not a direct threat to the U.S. itself, It is better to keep your allies' as allies, rather than to let them drift over to the "other" side of the fence.

Under-estimating ones' enemies has led to more than one lost battle, or lost war. Overestimation can be a killer, too, although we have been able to do well in some of the recent conflicts, and the technology seemed to perform as expected. But I stand by this argument; It would be a harsher war than what has been occuring these last two decades, for we haven't seen the full capabilities' of the Russian Military yet; Chechnya and Bosnia were more of a police action, where the Russian's did not have to deploy their full capability (What they did deploy was deadly enough indeed) and if you noticed in this latest incursion into Georgia, the 58th Army, and the 19th Motor-Rifle Division in particular, of the Russian Army seemed to have an awful lot of out-dated equipment (notice the suprisingly high number of T-62's.) It doesn't take long, or very much reading, to get a grasp of what modern weapons' can do. The internet is full of this info...It's not terribly diffucult to pick up a book and read about it. This allows' people that might otherwise not have any idea as to what is going on, to be able to develop an informed opinion that can stand in debate.

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BTW, no, I haven't ever been in our Armed Forces. I could not show you a DD-214. and my oldest son is only 13. I'm not gonna hide behind an internet persona on this. But I am a citizen of the United States of America, and as such, I will try to uphold any future calling my country makes of me, and God willing, It's for a good cause.

I didn't mean this as a slander or a barb at you, Rich...I answered your question...well, honestly, because there are WAY too many people on the net today who are clever enough, and willing, to masquerade as something they aren't. No matter how much info you put input into a personality/occupational profile, The internet still makes everything impossible to either verify or disprove. To give an example, look at the PETA board raids' that members' here have participated in, basically claiming to be people they aren't. We have people on this board even now, who's military service has come under suspicion...Simply because unlike meeting someone face-to-face, the glaring rectangle of the LCD monitor only gives' you enough insight as to who someone is, as to what they type on it.

BTW, Ty for your time served.  :salute

Offline mensa180

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2008, 06:08:44 PM »
I have always wondered, our planes may have the radar return of a bird/fly whatever, but wouldn't you be curious as to why a bird or fly is going 1000mph at 15,000 feet?  Or does it disrupt signals so much they can't accurately tell speed and altitude?
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2008, 08:07:14 PM »
rich, why do you keep calling my Marines "kids" , they are men, trained to fight.

USMC vet

Do I really have to explain why?

Its is a statement of concern for them. That and Im old enough to be their father.

"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2008, 08:20:45 PM »
Quote
There's some things' in here that looked contradictory to me. For example...Georgia, even though it has appealed to NATO for membership, isn't a member yet. The troops' they contributed to Iraq are not for a NATO coalition; It's for one that the U.S. has set up. Therefore, how could it be any matter BUT an american one right now? I see what you mean by the usage of the U.S. military to move in humanitarian aid. That could be construed as simply not having any commercial/civilian means available, to either reach the location, or be willing to go into a combat zone, however.

How many troops? Of what quality? Enough and good enough to start a war between superpowers?

We have responded. We just havnt started a major war. And man we could whistle up 100 charter airplanes and as many ships if we wanted. Those are USN warships delivering supplies. Not freighters.

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I'm not convinced that even the old USSR was any worse than the current regime in Russia, simply because of the fact that although he had to step down from the Presidency, Vladimir Putin was able to sidestep his countries' constitution and democratically elected gov't.

During the cold war, if your not old enough to remember, we had our entire nuclear posture on trip wire. And it was a huge force, as was The Soviets. We had 3 classes of ICBMs when I was in and hundreds of B-52s hot wired to roll in minutes of the go. Dude I saw it. NATO Europe and the Warsaw pact were huge armed camps loaded with nuclear weapons and IRBMs. We had huge armies faceing each other at a high state of readiness.

You dont think that was worse?

Listen man, Im done with this. Now we got the one liner Queens jumping in along with people who think I actually care about their opinions on whether or not Im legit. And no insult intended, you seem like a nice guy, but to me you are doing to much talking and not enough listening. You dont know what your talking about and wont learn any better. No insult, Im just kinda blunt.

Anyway....goodby.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline RipChord929

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2008, 08:46:49 PM »
My, isn't it strange how history repeats itself....

Poland being threatened by the monster to the east.. Shades of a very scary past...

Remember that Poland was once part of the German union, until the end of WWI...
Poles were trained in German Military schools, and served the Kaiser very well...
I could never understand why the Nazi's turned on them so savagely...  Considering
the manpower shortages of the German Military during the war, Just more Hitlerian stupidity...
I cant imagine Being a Pole during the first 1/2 of the 20th century, Sitting between two
totalitarian monsters, both eying my nation like a juicy morsel...

Little known is that in the early 20's, during the Russian civil war, a Bolshevik Red army
was making frequent foraging incursions into Polish territory... (you know how Russians forage right?)
Until they were completely annihilated on the field by the Polish army... (Polish WWI vets, showing their worth)
It seems that a certain person was part of the command structure for that Army... And
its destruction caused him considerable embarrassment in the eyes of Lenin... At the time
unkie Joe was involved in a nasty power struggle with Leon Trotsky, for succession as master
of the Communist Utopian state... Stalin never forgot about those rotten little Poles...
The Poles never forgot about it either...

That's why in the 30s, the Poles refused to ally themselves with the soviets... Preferring
Britain and France, even though they had no means of mutual support... Geez, talk about
being between a rock and a hard place, Hitler on one side, Stalin on the other... With the
only countries willing to help, TOO FAR AWAY!!!

Then the war came, Hitler and Stalin divided Poland between them... They both made SURE
that the leadership of the Polish Free Army, was DEAD... Between the SS, and the NKVD,
they hunted down and slaughtered, every intellectual, every school teacher, every Military officer...
Maxim Machine guns roared, and the ditches were filled... Winston Churchill said that
Europe had descended into a new dark age... The world wouldn't know how dark until the
war ended... Exact numbers are still unknown, but its safe to say that Poland suffered more
deaths per capita, than any other nation in the war...

Then to be crushed under the soviet boot for almost 50 years... But somehow their will to
be a free independent nation was not lost... Finally they are a free people again, and don't
think for an instant, that they won't flip that twofaced Putin the bird... Or go down without a fight!!!

As you can tell, I have a great respect for the Polish people... They deserve far better
than they have received from the world...

I hope the west doesn't let them down again...

RC
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2008, 01:27:57 AM »
My, isn't it strange how history repeats itself....

Poland being threatened by the monster to the east.. Shades of a very scary past...

Remember that Poland was once part of the German union, until the end of WWI...
Poles were trained in German Military schools, and served the Kaiser very well...
I could never understand why the Nazi's turned on them so savagely...  Considering
the manpower shortages of the German Military during the war, Just more Hitlerian stupidity...
I cant imagine Being a Pole during the first 1/2 of the 20th century, Sitting between two
totalitarian monsters, both eying my nation like a juicy morsel...

Little known is that in the early 20's, during the Russian civil war, a Bolshevik Red army
was making frequent foraging incursions into Polish territory... (you know how Russians forage right?)
Until they were completely annihilated on the field by the Polish army... (Polish WWI vets, showing their worth)
It seems that a certain person was part of the command structure for that Army... And
its destruction caused him considerable embarrassment in the eyes of Lenin... At the time
unkie Joe was involved in a nasty power struggle with Leon Trotsky, for succession as master
of the Communist Utopian state... Stalin never forgot about those rotten little Poles...
The Poles never forgot about it either...

That's why in the 30s, the Poles refused to ally themselves with the soviets... Preferring
Britain and France, even though they had no means of mutual support... Geez, talk about
being between a rock and a hard place, Hitler on one side, Stalin on the other... With the
only countries willing to help, TOO FAR AWAY!!!

Then the war came, Hitler and Stalin divided Poland between them... They both made SURE
that the leadership of the Polish Free Army, was DEAD... Between the SS, and the NKVD,
they hunted down and slaughtered, every intellectual, every school teacher, every Military officer...
Maxim Machine guns roared, and the ditches were filled... Winston Churchill said that
Europe had descended into a new dark age... The world wouldn't know how dark until the
war ended... Exact numbers are still unknown, but its safe to say that Poland suffered more
deaths per capita, than any other nation in the war...

Then to be crushed under the soviet boot for almost 50 years... But somehow their will to
be a free independent nation was not lost... Finally they are a free people again, and don't
think for an instant, that they won't flip that twofaced Putin the bird... Or go down without a fight!!!

As you can tell, I have a great respect for the Polish people... They deserve far better
than they have received from the world...

I hope the west doesn't let them down again...

RC

Polands' already a NATO signatory, if I'm not mistaken...and unlike 1939, they have a NATO ally (Germany) at their back. It should be a proposition the Russians' don't wanna face, IMHO.

Offline Hornet33

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2008, 09:19:36 AM »
I have always wondered, our planes may have the radar return of a bird/fly whatever, but wouldn't you be curious as to why a bird or fly is going 1000mph at 15,000 feet?  Or does it disrupt signals so much they can't accurately tell speed and altitude?

Kinda off topic but since I'm a radar technician.......Due to the radar cross section of our most advanced fighters and bombers being so small a radar system can pick them up BUT here is the key part, in order to do it the system would have to have the discriminator turned all the way down. So the radar would be seeing the airplane with a radar cross section of a bird AS WELL as ALL the real birds flying around, ground clutter, and everything else, in short the system would be so overloaded with target information that the operator wouldn't be able to see anything. Stealth doesn't make you invisibe to radar, it just makes you so hard to detect that you can exploit gaps in radar coverage to go where you want to go.

Using a radar is a fine balance of putting out just enough power to detect what your looking for without overloading the receiver with too much return information. Trying to detect a stealth aircraft requires a LOT of power and when you put that much power out the front end a LOT of target data is going to come back to the receiver. Too mch and all you see on the screen is a bunch of snow because your seeing everything. It would be like trying to find one or tow pixels on your monitor that are moving out of the millions of pixels you can see.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Mutual Defense Treaty with Poland.......huh?
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2008, 09:34:19 AM »
Hornet, follow on question... how did the Serbians get a lock on the F117 they brought down?

Different type of radar?
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