DA V MA

[Slash27]

You can't fly in the DA with the rule book, unless you use it to chalk your wheels.

BS. Have fun in your little world however

[Urthona]

Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:

1)  People making JABO runs
2)  People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3)  Vulching
4)  People bothering to land kills

(OK the last one I get a little)

[Anaxogoras]

Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:

1)  People making JABO runs
2)  People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3)  Vulching
4)  People bothering to land kills

(OK the last one I get a little)

Hehe, I was practicing in the Ki-61 tonight just before FSO and I landed kills simply because the perked-bandits all ran away.

[stegor]

Its better punctualize what really is SA to avoid certain nonsense I've read here.

When you begin your action, having SA is not only tracking your enemy in 1Vs1

Sa means having consciousness of your alt, your speed and potential, having planned in a second your position to attack, the position of ALL the contacts near you, their speed their E ,directions, potential of threath and the point of your egress or escape after the action (that do not means to run,  but find the convenient  position to repeat/reprogram your attack.)

Not to mention the consciousness of the landscape under you, tha can be useful in case things are not going right.

Its rediculous thinking of SA as a scanning a bit the sky above and then happily slip in a turn 'n' turn in 1vs1 ad libitum.....

Your SA improves and its heavily proved when the situation around you is total chaos, enemies are over, under around, and they attack you without no rules , no mercy, ready to pick you ( yes pick!!!) at your minimal error, at your first distraction, when you are drooling for a kill target fixating.....

All the rest is speculation on the way to intend flying and fighting....but this is a neverending debate.

[Masherbrum]

You can't fly in the DA with the rule book, unless you use it to chalk your wheels.

Tolet paper

It's a shame a shades account has been wasted on someone such as this.    Sweet spelling btw!     You know those "Suffocation Warnings" on plastic bags?    Ignore em and go for it!

[crockett]

Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:

1)  People making JABO runs
2)  People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3)  Vulching
4)  People bothering to land kills

(OK the last one I get a little)

5) People climbing to 10k or higher
6) People flying together and being gangtards, then calling it squad tactics

[Agent360]

Got here late on this one.

But the main difference of the DA and MA besides the aformentioned "cherry picking, griefeing gangbangers" is this:

I think JingO was talking about the difference in mechanics of the planes. I am comparing Furball lake to any other furball in the MA.

At furball lake all bases are at 5k. So you take off with much more engine performance and get to target speed much faster because of this. It takes half the time to get to 10k and and at max cruse speed or your intended Alt and speed what ever that is. Therefor you will immediatly find yoursefl with all the speed and alt you need in almost any plane no matter how slow it is. There is no terrain over the lake and you get to use all the alt you came in with.

You typically can in about 2 min find yourself over the furball with tons of smash to dive in with and you didnt have to avoid anyone to get there.

If you are in a slower plane like the hurri you can have almost endless energy due to this. You will just be able to use your zoom and turn to max effect against an even faster plane trying to slow down enough to get a shot.

You can up with 25% fuel and still have plenty of flying time therefor you are meeting enemies with light weight fuel or even light gun packages.

Third person view is enabled. That never helped me but some people can fly like that real good. So this gives them a better SA component if you dont fly in third person.

The radar always shows where the cons are. So its easy to set up a climb or dive to a DOT and merge with whatever speed or alt you need or want.

In the MA it takes time and fuel to climb then you have more time to get speed and during that time you may be forced to deal with the enemy and so you wont have all that smash if any. Fuel loads are heavy etc.

You can easily get addicted to the speed you have in any plane in the DA. Then you go to MA and find that you cant quite get that kind of advantage very easily. YOu have to take time to get to alt, take the right fuel load, and avoid higher cons while you are climbing to your alt. Then you cant see the dots outside of your base radar so you cant make a pre decision on how to engage until you are in icon range.

I think its mainly the 5k base and short time to max speed before you engage. IF you are lower you can just dive to get speed immediatly and then set up. ITs just alot easier this way. The MA doesnt give you any of this on take off.

Agent360

[Vudak]

I'm rather suprised at some of the responses from certain people regarding this...  Especially when those responses are:

- Duels are predictable; and

- Duels don't help the MA fight because so few are coalt co-e in the MA

A good dueler is unpredictable...  And, as such, a good dueler is not always co-e.

I've found that spending time in the DA has given me the confidence to turn around and take on any bandit on my six, regardless of plane matchups...  I don't win them all, but I darn sure think I will, and have a fun time trying...  That's a big (and important, IMO) difference between me now, and when I started.  That whole "darn there's a lala on my 6...  He's gonna catch me" situation is no biggy any more.  It used to be a very bad thing.

IMO the things you learn in dueling (edge, timing, maneuver, etc.) are all *very* applicable in the MA...

[1pLUs44]

Rules! What flipp'n Rules? As far as Im conserned, combat has no rules

You're acting like KILLERg after I pwnt his butt in 3 fights.

[Zazen13]

I'm rather suprised at some of the responses from certain people regarding this...  Especially when those responses are:

- Duels are predictable; and

- Duels don't help the MA fight because so few are coalt co-e in the MA

A good dueler is unpredictable...  And, as such, a good dueler is not always co-e.

I've found that spending time in the DA has given me the confidence to turn around and take on any bandit on my six, regardless of plane matchups...  I don't win them all, but I darn sure think I will, and have a fun time trying...  That's a big (and important, IMO) difference between me now, and when I started.  That whole "darn there's a lala on my 6...  He's gonna catch me" situation is no biggy any more.  It used to be a very bad thing.

IMO the things you learn in dueling (edge, timing, maneuver, etc.) are all *very* applicable in the MA...

Well, a single guy you know will be in a certain plane, at a certain alt, at a certain place, while possibly unpredictable from that point forward within that limited scope and context, is nothing close to the unpredictability presented in the MA. Also, as someone who prides himself on surgical tactical and strategic precision I can tell you categorically that I end up forced to fight in unfavorable circumstances a lot in the MA, so it would be even more common for someone not so "surgical" in their overall approach. On average at least once a sortie I am oblidged to do something like force an overshoot and gank someone trying to run me down or bounce me that has a significant E and maneuverability advantage. So, the MA is a potentially valid place to learn how to fight in a much wider variety of situations and scenarios.

What the MA isn't is a particularly good place to learn and master a "merge move". You will very rarely get to practice and articulate a same plane/Co-E/Co-Alt merge move in the MA. So, if you are ever faced with that situation you have a wonderful chance of blowing it if the other guy knows his stuff...That is really the value of the DA and what primarily distinguishes a great dueler from a mediocre one, the refinement of various "merge moves", which represent only a minuscule fraction of what comprises an accomplished MA fighter.

[Murdr]

What the MA isn't is a particularly good place to learn and master a "merge move". You will very rarely get to practice and articulate a same plane/Co-E/Co-Alt merge move in the MA. So, if you are ever faced with that situation you have a wonderful chance of blowing it if the other guy knows his stuff...That is really the value of the DA and what primarily distinguishes a great dueler from a mediocre one, the refinement of various "merge moves", which represent only a minuscule fraction of what comprises an accomplished MA fighter.

I think you are selling dueling short for it's usefullness in other situations on one point.  In the context of AH air combat is a 3d chess game to get your guns on the other guy without exposing yourself to his guns (or at least minimising your own exposure).  Through dueling one can expose themselves to a myriad of different 3d positioning and find the right and wrong way to respond to them.  At any point in a dynamic engagement presenting a BFM problem, if one of the opponents can say "I've seen this before and I know what to do next", that is an asset on their side.  The better pilots can go a step further than that.  They can look at positioning and say "This looks failure...If I just adjust my position and attitude slightly I can turn this into...I've seen this before and I know what to do".

This experience can be gained in a far more time efficient manner through dueling than without.  While there are other skills needed to be effective in the MA, this skillset can be applied regardless of relative E, dissimilar/similar aircraft, and number of opponents on hand.  One can get by without it, but they will at times have less options available to them in a given situation.

[Zazen13]

This experience can be gained in a far more time efficient manner through dueling than without.  While there are other skills needed to be effective in the MA, this skillset can be applied regardless of relative E, dissimilar/similar aircraft, and number of opponents on hand.  One can get by without it, but they will at times have less options available to them in a given situation.

Yup, I agree with that, especially if it's "setup" for variety rather than just the traditional format to settle a grudge. It is especially true for newer players who have not completely mastered, to the theoretical maximum of their innate ability, the mechanical fundamentals. But, the average player flies 30-50 hrs per month in the MA, some many, many more than that. It's a certainty, even if they never touch the DA, they will get a thorough education in what planes/pilots can/will do and what to do against them in any given situation over a reasonable length of time.

Obviously, the biggest distinction between real-life and the game is, we don't die. We have literally thousands of times more flight hours of experience in our cartoon planes than even the most experienced real world combat aviators had. So, the diminishing returns of repeating the same or very similar thing over and over is relatively quickly achieved. Once the fundamentals have been repeated so much they are indelibly etched into our instinctive playbook, further reinforcing them in condensed fashion has very little impact on our overall net performance. A player is probably as good as they are going to get at any respective aspect of the mechanical fundamentals at that point. From that point on developing the mental aspect, for which the MA is far more useful and "condensed", is the realm in which continued development is likely to be achieved in accelerated fashion.

[bj229r]

Nope, the assertion is that the 2 are very different. Whilst you can get in a furball in the DA, its not like a furball in the MA. There are some very good sticks that will da anyone and everyone - who also do very well in the MA's. Then there are those (like me) who 1 v 1 suck badly, but do reasonably well in the MA.

As Zazen said, the MA is more about having your wits about you (ie, good SA), whereas the DA requires more skill flying your individual plane against a single opponent.

Wurzel

Yah, I do tolerably well in MA (the afore-mentioned 'SA' part) but I cant fight my way out of a paper bag  :frown:in a standard merge-type duel, even against other jugs--very few of the things that help in 1 area apply to the other

[Zazen13]

Yah, I do tolerably well in MA (the afore-mentioned 'SA' part) but I cant fight my way out of a paper bag  :frown:in a standard merge-type duel, even against other jugs--very few of the things that help in 1 area apply to the other

Many are like that, I am like that. I realized after my 5,237th duel that it was doing nothing for me. I was not improving or learning anything I didn't already know. I would estimate I've literally had 15,000+ Hrs of cartoon air combat experience. The limiting factor for me is not lack of experience in any particular form, it's simply my innate ability and aptitude for it being currently "maxed out".

However, my "mental" game has never stagnated, I continue to grow in that respect. There are a few people that are equally accomplished mechanically and mentally, but it's pretty rare and no different than someone who's a gifted musician or artist. For the rest of us common plebes our natural aptitudes and personality are going to make us better at one than the other to varying degrees, regardless of "play-mode", after a certain "critical mass" of air combat experience.

[PsychoVI]

BS. Have fun in your little world however

I understand about rules in 1 to 1 dueling, I was mostly talking about dogfighting over FurBall Lake.