RE: Erich Hartmann

[CAP1]

Yes, BUT, would he have had anywhere near 350+ kills.

yes

[Motherland]

Of course.  I agree that he probably wouldn't have reached 352.  Then again, Marseille scored his 158 victories against the western allies in a very short time.

Very short. IIRC he was only in Africa, where he scored most of his kills, for little over a year before he was killed when his 109G had engine problems and he hit his vertical stabilizer bailing out. There's probably a good chance he would have surpassed Hartmann had he lived longer.

[Anaxogoras]

Very short. IIRC he was only in Africa, where he scored most of his kills, for little over a year.

7 kills during the BoB I think, the rest in Africa.

[Yenny]

W00t for Jochen 

[CAP1]

7 kills during the BoB I think, the rest in Africa.

regardless of where he served his country, you cannot take credit away from an amazingly talented pilot.

 

[Motherland]

He means... it's amazing... he scored 151 kills against the RAF in less than a year and a half.

[Yenny]

Jochen is a god of air combat. END OF STORY.

[Grayeagle]

Think a little about it.

Your country has declared war, you're twenty years old or so, and they need you.

They're going to give you a brand new shiny state-of-the-art amazing Hot Rod of the skies with a bunch of big-ass guns on it,
...and turn you loose after training you on the basics of how not to get killed taking off in one.

I don't know about everyone for sure .. but for me .. I would be so IN.
I wooda been right there with 'am all.. or died tryin.

"Gimme the whole nine yards an fill 'er up, cheif, ima go shoot the *crap* outta somethin!!"

-GE aka Frank

[Squire]

IL-2s were actually tough a/c to shoot down, its easy to endlessly quote (which we all do cuz its interesting) the exploits of the top 1 percent, and then act as if thats the "norm". The things they did were extraordinary because they were the top elite in their respective air forces.

As for Hartmann, just because he had a certain # of kills would have been no guarantee he would have survived the war, war is cruel, there are many 100+ LW vets who who were KIA in 1943-45. Even the best of the bests luck runs out at some point. Its nothing but idle speculation past that. Death by "other means" ie; mechanical failure, collision, weather, ect, was also a constant danger, and in his case, thats what happened. It was a cause of so many missions his number finally came up.

Look at Von Richtofen in WW1, all those missions and close calls, in the end, he just had a bad day, and thats all it took.

[Charge]

"Kill"

Every "kill" is with a high probability an actual "kill" of the enemy pilot. That is why I do not cheer those achievements but only as a sad measure of their skill and result of chance or, as in late Luftwaffe case (also remember Polish pilots), desperation. 300, 100, 10, even one kill -does not really matter, they all, of every nationality, did their best even in such a grim profession.

I would not want to think (if I was here anymore to think anything) that my every kill was somebody's dearly missed son or somebody's father. I have met WW2 veterans who usually do not want to discuss about their achievements and, for some time now, I have very well understood why.

I'm glad I did not have to be in their place.

-C+

PS. Carry on people, do not pay heed to my gloomy ramblings...

[CAP1]

IL-2s were actually tough a/c to shoot down, its easy to endlessly quote (which we all do cuz its interesting) the exploits of the top 1 percent, and then act as if thats the "norm". The things they did were extraordinary because they were the top elite in their respective air forces.

As for Hartmann, just because he had a certain # of kills would have been no guarantee he would have survived the war, war is cruel, there are many 100+ LW vets who who were KIA in 1943-45. Even the best of the bests luck runs out at some point. Its nothing but idle speculation past that. Death by "other means" ie; mechanical failure, collision, weather, ect, was also a constant danger, and in his case, thats what happened. It was a cause of so many missions his number finally came up.

Look at Von Richtofen in WW1, all those missions and close calls, in the end, he just had a bad day, and thats all it took.

actually, if i recall correctly from reading, richtoffen's downfall(in the long run) was when he got shot in the head. the bullet grazed his head, forcing him to land. it tok him some time to heal, but from all accounts, he had lost the "drive" that he was famous for. he seemed to not want to fl anymore, and less attentave.
 then when he finally was finished, what killed him, was that he broke one of his own rules in combat, and got too focused on his prey. this let him get disoriented,too close to the ground behind enemy lines, and the ground gunners got him(although books said roy brown shot him down, he was never in gun range...i think)

 as far as having good and bad days.......that is true. sometimes better lucky than good

[Shane]

Or was he condemned to life to being an evil Nazi for defending the German people against the hordes of the murdering, plundering, raping Red Army?

Uhhh... Uhhhh.... "defending?"  correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Germany invade Russia?

[BlauK]

One usually defends after he is no longer able to attack

What do you think, Shane, were the Americans defending their country, or were they just attacking the Germans and Japanese after they got attacked?

[Anaxogoras]

It was a preemptive strike.
 

[Shane]

See Rules #4, #5