Abortion is one thing but this?

[Nilsen]

You are not by any chanse a chrisitan conservative are you Gunthr? 

[Elfie]

Id also like to add that when i said that i am pro abortions later than the first trimester then it should be extreme medical reasons like danger to the mom or a serious flaw with the blob (fetus).

Look up some photos of unborn children, even at 5 weeks it is no longer just a *blob*.  At 5 weeks its arms and legs are already beginning to develop, its circulatory system (including the heart) is already functional. The rest of the internal organs are starting to develop as well. That's just at 5 weeks.

[moot]

Consciousness ought to be the criteria, not the peripheral body.

[AKIron]

Consciousness ought to be the criteria, not the peripheral body.

Does that mean we need to abort about half the participants on this bbs? I get to pick which half.

[Nilsen]

Consciousness ought to be the criteria, not the peripheral body.

what moot said

[Donzo]

Consciousness ought to be the criteria, not the peripheral body.

When is consciousness present?

[Nilsen]

When is consciousness present?

You dont know when your conscious? 

[Elfie]

When is consciousness present?

My wife had an ultra sound at 4 months with our last child. As the technician moved the ultra sound device around on my wifes stomach, we could see our daughter moving her head so she could look right where the ultra sound was coming from. I'd say she was exhibiting consciousness then.

[Donzo]

You dont know when your conscious? 

Thanks for attempting to contribute to the discussion.

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was asking.

When is consciousness present in a fetus?  Do you know?

[yanksfan]

Incest?  Rape?  Mothers life threatened by the pregnancy, yes. 

Keep your legs closed and the dog in the house if your not willing to own up to it.  Birth control for casual reasons should stop at the moment of conception.

But then again, if the woman does not want to carry through to term how can anyone other than God prevent it from ending intentionally.

WOW! The first thing you have ever said I can fully agree with

EDIT: I'm scared!

[Xasthur]

In the future we can continue growing a fetus in a jar. We'll be also able to create childs from the get go in a jar. There really has to be a fair limit to abortion regardless of the modern medicine, because eventually the chance for abortion would be nil - anything would survive. This is the same reason why I'm for euthanasia as well. For the elderly the modern medicine will eventually be nothing but years of torture on the brink of death. For the women it will limit their options against unwanted pregnancy, which could result in an unwanted child (or the parent could be unable to upkeep a child financially) and that's not a good thing on the long run. You don't wish a bad childhood for anyone.

Indeed. The prerequisite for life should be the ability to naturally survive outside the womb. It seems to be the easiest way to draw a line. As I understand it, the legal line is currently drawn at birth... I think this overlooks the viable life that it is contained within the woman during the later stages of pregnancy. At later stages there is no excuse for not knowing that you're pregnant and there is no going back. Threat to the mother's life or future well-being should be the only legal reason once the pregnancy reaches natural viability outside of the womb (IE with minimal interference from technology to keep it alive).

Thanks for attempting to contribute to the discussion.

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was asking.

When is consciousness present in a fetus?  Do you know?

Consciousness is a problematic requirement of life. For example, if consciousness is the ability to feel pain then abortions would have to performed quite early in the pregnancy due to the basic formation of the brain cells....I won't get scientific at this stage but you can see where I'm taking this...If consciousness is 'awareness' then this awareness leads to autonomy and autonomy leads to the euthanasia of the mentally disabled at birth, then those with acquired brain injuries..... etc etc. I don't believe that link myself, but it is evident that the link can be made and that people will make it (as some have already here).

I'd be interested to see how people defined consciousness and where they considered that present during a pregnancy.

Interesting philosophical discussion, guys.  

[Trell]

I believe that it should be the women’s right up until Birth.  Up until that point she should be able to give it up.  I don’t consider it a child until it can survive outside a women.

With newer and newer technology rather then abortion can she give deliver it early and let the hospital start caring for it?   I am all for that.   
Of course that would be socialized healthcare,  Letting the government care for this child.

I do consider abortion wrong over all but I don’t believe I should make people  Follow what I believe is moral when it is their body.

[yanksfan]

Thanks for attempting to contribute to the discussion.

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was asking.

When is consciousness present in a fetus?  Do you know?

Define consciousness.

All these arguments attempt to side step the issue, A women's right to choose comes b4 conception, after that she is a caretaker of the yet unborn child. Personal concerns come to an end at the point of conception. The time to choose is in the planning of a sexual lifestyle and this is where anti abortion people drop the ball.

 Education and information, birth control concepts and products need to be available, family planning and a basic knowledge of the human body need to taught and made required in our education system. If it were then abortion would no longer be an issue.

In any case abortion is wrong and should be made illegal.

[moot]

Consciousness is a problematic criteria (understatement) but it's the only one I'd buy and would support in choosing a stance on abortion.
And it's not a side step to the argument at all. It's the same sort of pragmatic brass tacks as coming to the conclusion that agnosticism is the only responsible stance on religion/God...  Saying that a kid is worth killing because he unconvenienced the mother but wasn't able to survive on his own is wrong.  There's a conscious human in that lump of flesh and it deserves the same rights as anyone else as e.g. in the US Declaration of Independence.. "inalienable rights".

[Xasthur]

Yanksfan, such an 'open and shut' understanding of abortion leaves out so many reasonable justifications for abortion.

Abnormal pregnancies can cause the irreversible infertility of the woman and even death. Who are you to tell them that abortion is wrong? I know for certain that I would be 100% for abortion if my partner's life was at risk due to the pregnancy. She is irreplaceable... an unborn foetus is.

While we're on the subject, who are you to tell the woman who already has 3 children and fell pregnant to her husband because her contraceptive pill failed due to an illness that she must have another child even though she cannot afford the health risks of an older aged pregnancy or even the financial burden of another child?

Sure, there are a small percentage of women who should just be sterilised because they are impossibly stupid... but the vast majority of women who have abortions are women who have already had children years before and had a slip with their contraception (the pill is very easy to interfere with, for example... condoms break...etc).... then there are rape victims... 14 year old girls.... women who will face terrible health problems if they continue with the pregnancy.... deformed foetuses.... etc.

There are SO many reasons for abortion that I cannot begin to address them all here. I will say that the general attitude that you display glimpses of toward the issue reminds me very strongly of the misinformed souls who harass women outside abortion clinics in 'foetus suits' (which are completely scientifically false). These disgusting vermin prey on very troubled women with absolutely no consideration of what the individual may be going through.

My partner is a nurse at one of these clinics and the watermelon that she and her patients have to deal with on a daily basis from these vermin disgusts me.

Basically, you have no right to dictate such black and white terms to women in this situation. You have no right to force another person into a lifetime commitment because of your moral beliefs. Morals are subjective and thus so is your opinion. One subjective opinion has no greater weight than another.

- This is not a personal attack and I mean no offence to anyone. -