Real wider FoV for thick armoured windshields

[BlauK]

Since the new Me262 is soon arriving, this PITA lack of refraction effect surfaces again.
It has been discussed several times before. Some pics and links to previous threads can be found e.g. from this thread -> http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,229142.0.html

The screenshots at HTC front page show again, how the lack of paying regard to the behaviour of thick glass results a front field of view (FoV) which restricts the view more than happens in real life. And that is in addition to the already existing lack of real life stereo view on a computer screen. I still cannot understand why it is more preferable to restrict the view than to allow people to see out from their planes.... out to where the fight is happening. The cockpit insides are mostly just eye candy (naturally there is also the info aspect of the gauges).


Below is a sample of what I am talking about (an animated gif which has 2 stages/frames). Even if it may look like a small difference, it makes a huge difference in deflection shooting.




Here is a photo of a real Me262 cokpit. The same refraction effect is quite clear and the cockpit frames do not appear as restricting.




I assume it may be too difficult to make a real refraction happen, but at least the effect could be faked into the cockpit models by adjusting the apparent thickness of the vertical front frames.

The question is only about the will to make it happen! A much larger fake already exists in P-51D's vertical frames.

[BnZ]

BlauK:

Well, views from the cockpit were one advantage/disadvantage pilots actually had to deal with, so we should emulate that in some way in AHII

That said, I have looked at some pictures comparing 190 and P-51D cockpits. The difference in the thickness of the two vertical frames in front does not seem as great in photographs as it does from the drivers' seats in AHII, and yes, is a real PITA in the 190, considering that plane is a great roller and poor turner and will be looking for the crossing snap-shot.

[Anaxogoras]

The question is only about the will to make it happen! A much larger fake already exists in P-51D's vertical frames.

Well done Blauk.  Unfortunately, there are many improvements for which the will to make them happen seems absent, so we can add this one to the list and hope.

[waystin2]

Well, views from the cockpit were one advantage/disadvantage pilots actually had to deal with, so we should emulate that in some way in AHII

I agree.   

[715]

Your example of refraction effects is correct.  The image in the thick glass should be translated down like you show and you should get a slightly higher FOV because the light is not passing horizontal through the glass but canted at an angle between horizontal and the angle of the glass.  So not as much of the view gets clipped off as occurs if there is no refraction and the light just passes straight through the frame.  However, I suspect that to attempt to implement this would be a nightmare- it would require separate 3D rendering of the world in that glass window.  So I guess what you are asking is for the vertical height of the glass (and surrounding frame) to be increased a bit to compensate.  Sounds fair, but it is the top that needs to be extended, not the bottom.

[BlauK]

I agree that there must be disadvantages of viewing, but not more than there was/is in real life. The comuter game already restricts our natural Fov (about 180deg horizontally and about 90deg vertically) and our stereo view = depth perception. Some other games even fix the "single eye" at one spot. AH is great in that respect by allowing 6 DOF... simulating the pilot moving inside the cockpit. AH actually over-does that by allowing the neck spin around the back over and over again

The refraction effect also works sideways, not only at top and bottom. I'd be pleased to see some faking even just in the vertical side frames. They would be very easy to change without affecting what the plane looks from outside. This is previously proposed in those earlier threads.

Without a vertical shift of FoV the mg bulges in 109G-6 and -14 and in Dora will keep on appearing too high, but I suppose there is no easy fix for that. One would not want to change the exterior appearance of the planes just to fake the view from inside.

[Wmaker]

Great post BK, totally agree!

BTW, I took some more shots of the 109's armored glass from different angles. I'll try to remember to send them to you when I get to my computer.

[SmokinLoon]

I understand the wish for realism however extreme they may be, but there are many other infractions against realism in this flight sim that deserve higher priority than tinkering with the FoV / refraction of the forward views of the Me262, Bf109, and Fw190 aircraft.

My opinions, of course.   

[BlauK]

Your opinion of course... but likely you are not one of those who primarily fly a LW plane with a thick armoured windshield and with cockpit frames appearing too thick The ones who do know how often the target vanishes or makes a drastic direction changes while hiding behind the frames, thus spoiling an otherwise "perfectly planned deflection shot" 

I can only imagine the uproar we would have seen if P-51D's windshield had been modelled using the same principles as Bf109-G:s, FW:s and what seems to come with Me262... in 2 weeks

High priority or not, but IMHO it is not as much a question of a time consuming task than of willingness to make it happen. Like I said previously, it would be a fairly simple change in a 3D model.

[Delirium]

I can only imagine the uproar we would have seen if P-51D's windshield had been modelled using the same principles as Bf109-G:s, FW:s and what seems to come with Me262... in 2 weeks

Not that I don't believe you, but it will take more than one picture at an oblique angle to convince me that the graphic of the cockpit is inaccurate. I'd really like to see a picture from the pilot's position but I cannot find any right now.

Besides, have you seen our P38G? Its lack of visibility makes the rest look like a glass cockpit. Not to mention the armored glass actually causes glare to completely mask a target.

[BnZ]

I did a quick google images search, and this was the ONLY good side-by-side, from the "driver's seat" imagery of the P-51 and 190 view out the windscreen I could find. It is a drawing from a book on WWII airplanes, and thus cannot be considered infallible, yet, assuming it is close to correct, it would appear the view out of a Fw-190 as depicted is nowhere near as limited as compared to that of a P-51D in AHII.

In particular, in Aces High, the two frames around the front armored glass panel in the Fw-190 appear a little thicker and more slanted than they look from Fw pictures I've seen. Making them a little thinner and more vertical would go a long way to making crossing shots in an Fw less of an exercise in frustration.

[BlauK]

Not that I don't believe you, but it will take more than one picture at an oblique angle to convince me that the graphic of the cockpit is inaccurate.

Yup, there are not too many pics available from pilots view point. Most photos are "of" cockpit, not "from" it

But would this do the trick for you considering the Pony?  



 

[Serenity]

(Image removed from quote.)

I did a quick google images search, and this was the ONLY good side-by-side, from the "driver's seat" imagery of the P-51 and 190 view out the windscreen I could find. It is a drawing from a book on WWII airplanes, and thus cannot be considered infallible, yet, assuming it is close to correct, it would appear the view out of a Fw-190 as depicted is nowhere near as limited as compared to that of a P-51D in AHII.

In particular, in Aces High, the two frames around the front armored glass panel in the Fw-190 appear a little thicker and more slanted than they look from Fw pictures I've seen. Making them a little thinner and more vertical would go a long way to making crossing shots in an Fw less of an exercise in frustration.

Ive got the book that side-by-side came from

And yes, I COMPLETELY agree. German planes are already restricted enough historically, give them what little saving grace they had!

[Urchin]

German cockpits have been FUBAR'd since they came out with the new models.  No idea why you'd assume the 262 would be any different.