Author Topic: HiTech,Pyro, still considering no "Bar Dar" under 500 feet? (Read 1377 times)

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2001, 11:46:00 AM »

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Case in point:
Assassins squad night was last night. We planned on doing some captures and were met with this when we logged on:

hblair,

If there would be no darbar below 500, what make you think your (our.. I fly Rooks) radar would even be working? If our enemy could sneak in and kill our HQ, they would have. It works both ways.

I notice from the first map, we were not actively defending any of our rear fields including HQ. We were defending HQ when there was a threat. How may people in MA would just fly around defending our rear fields? If say 20 people would think this is fun and fly around the unoccupied rear sectors, what kind of chance would we have to break out and retake fields? The Rooks have held our ground now for several days, and even pushed back several times.

I just don't think "No DarBar Under 500" is right for MA.

Gunner <CAF>

milnko · « **Reply #31 on:** November 12, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »

It's been a few years since I flew AW3, but I seem to recall DAR being ineffective below 300 ft and messages in text buffer about "XXX field under attack" perhaps we could incorporate something similar. Another feature AW had as I recall was the ability to join missions generated by the server, you selected a mission based on whether you wanted to ATTACK or DEFEND.

Ideally I think a combination of AW's airbase under attack messages, server generated defense missions and ineffective dar below 300 ft IN CONJUNTION WITH WB 2.5 style "TOWER ONLY" radar would give the most balanced gameplay.

As it is now the defender pressed into the corner has little hope of busting out, considering the defender's every move is brodcasted to the whole arena via darbar.

The primary axiom of any combat is to hit the enemy where he is not, how can this be accomplished without surprise? The mission the ASSASSINS flew to A52 should have succeeded as it was flown NOE the entire way and could not possibly have been seen on any type of REALISTIC radar until we popped up for enough altitude to arm our bombs near the airfield/town.

That is not to say that "Coastal Watchers" or "Picket Ships" could not be added to the game warning of our inbound raid. Like the fishing boats did with the 'Doolittle Raid' during WW2. But this raid info should be transmitted in the text buffer, possibly in white text so it is not easily missed by the defending country.

Today in RL modern air combat missions they are planned around radar coverage ranges.

The trick being to "thread the needle" or to fly between radar radius's, trying to avoid 'em where ya can, flying thru them at the edges when ya can't, and ultimately trying to minimize the time ya spend in those radar covered zones.

Most of the AH player base desire the most realistic flight models that computer hardware allows, shouldn't we expect/desire more realistic attack and defense limitations and tactics as well?

hblair · « **Reply #32 on:** November 12, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »

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Originally posted by GunnerCAF:

hblair,

If there would be no darbar below 500, what make you think your (our.. I fly Rooks) radar would even be working? If our enemy could sneak in and kill our HQ, they would have. It works both ways.

I notice from the first map, we were not actively defending any of our rear fields including HQ. We were defending HQ when there was a threat. How may people in MA would just fly around defending our rear fields? If say 20 people would think this is fun and fly around the unoccupied rear sectors, what kind of chance would we have to break out and retake fields? The Rooks have held our ground now for several days, and even pushed back several times.

I just don't think "No DarBar Under 500" is right for MA.

Gunner <CAF>

Thanks for replying.

To answer your question about our HQ being vulnerable, well, look at the map:

Notice I have hi-lighted the sectors that are full of friendlies. Also notice that they are pretty much covering the whole forward area of our home island. For a flight of 4 or more bombers (typical HQ raid) to slip thru that on the deck (below 500ft) is very unlikely. Ask goon drivers about that. The most likely route would be around the rear of our home island (notice red flightpaths). If a guy (or squadron) wants to organize a raid that would take the amount of time it would take them to get to our HQ unseen, on the deck, well, more power to 'em. In my opinion, that's what the mission planner is all about.
------------------------------------------------------------

[semi rant to get HT's attention]
Isn't that what the mission planner is all about? Why have a mission planner if any mission of any size is fubar from the time they click "fly"?

I'm sorry if I sound redundant here, it's just dissapointing to find myself having to beg and plead my case to not have radar below 500ft. I gave up on tower only dar long ago. I gave up on limited bar dar long ago I gave up on limited dot radar long ago. I mean fer cryin out loud, the guy's gotta be practically on the water to be below radar coverage and that's too much to ask? The main arena right now (for whatever reason) is a big furball for the most part. Can't we try this HT?
[/semi rant to get HT's attention]

BTW, this is a great game, you guys do an admirable job with it, I'm not disgruntled, I just disagree about radar in the main arena.

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

hblair · « **Reply #33 on:** November 12, 2001, 02:02:00 PM »

Ploesti raid, US Liberators traveling NOE (nap of earth) avoid German radar bomb oil refineries in Romania. Would be cool if we could fly NOE to bomb bish/knight/rook oil refineries:

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While Allied and Axis forces were battling in Sicily, the AAF staged one of the war's most daring heavy bomber raids. The target was the Ploesti oil fields in Rumania, estimated to be supplying 60% of Germany's crude oil requirements.

Shortly after dawn on August 1, 1943, AAF B-24s took off from bases in Libya and headed toward the heavily defended target, deep inside enemy territory a thousand miles away. Over Bulgaria, clouds broke up the B-24 formations and the bombing elements became widely separated. Tracked by German radar which alerted Rumanian defenses, the B-24s arrived over the target at treetop height without the planned element of surprise.

Despite intense defensive fire from the ground and from the Axis planes, the AAF pressed the attack. In the confusion of battle, some B-24s made bombing runs through heavy smoke over targets that had already been attacked and were caught in the bursts of delayed action bombs dropped several minutes previously. Although overall damage to the target was heavy, the cost was high. Of 177 planes and 1,726 men who took off on the mission, 54 planes and 532 men failed to return.

Look at these pics:

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

airspro · « **Reply #34 on:** November 12, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »

I think you are right Heath but as you say it's his call .

You stated your case very well , we tryed to sneak A4 Saturday late afternoon , no way . If you ain't in big numbers it won't happen IMO .

Either way this is the game I fly online .

I hope you decide to give it a try HT , just the thought of all those low boggies makes my mouth drool

newguy · « **Reply #35 on:** November 12, 2001, 06:30:00 PM »

For what its worth, here's my vote for no bar dar under 500. I agree with hb, with the numbers we have now, it can be darn near impossble to do any field captures. The only other solution I could see would be to make the maps bigger, to make more targets, but that would only be a band aid solution, as I assume our numbers wil continue to grow. I say why not give it a try?

Zippatuh · « **Reply #36 on:** November 12, 2001, 06:56:00 PM »

Let’s remember that in order to do an adequate JABO some altitude will need to be gained before drop. Also don’t forget that a bomb has to travel 1000 feet before it will arm. 500 feet is not very much altitude. As soon as the attacking aircraft are in range the radar will light up like a Christmas tree with everyone trying to get some altitude for drop. Even if all aircraft are carrying cannons it’s not very advisable to go in level to de-ack a field.

Sure the reaction time for such an attack will have to be a little quicker but at the same time the attacking aircraft are not going to carrying very much of an altitude or energy advantage.

I think it’s a good idea.

Zippatuh

Frost · « **Reply #37 on:** November 12, 2001, 07:24:00 PM »

I also think it's a good idea, but would suggest adding a system warning that alerts a country to the fact that the field is being attacked as soon as a structure is destroyed. Maybe after 10-15 minutes of nothing being destroyed the alert is reset. I can envision pretty easily people going in under 500 feet with enough cannon armed planes to level a city for capture without much(or any)exposure time on radar.

Lizard3 · « **Reply #38 on:** November 12, 2001, 08:28:00 PM »

I concur. No bar dar below 500ft. Hows a poor country like Rooksters supposed to break out of Billy and Bubba's head lock without alittle stealth to help em along.

Lizard3 · « **Reply #39 on:** November 12, 2001, 08:34:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak:

You were simply saying that you prefered that there be no radar. That is a WWI environment.

Name one plane varient we currently have in AH that had any form of Air to Air radar in cockpit during WW2.

eddiek · « **Reply #40 on:** November 13, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »

Okay, I agree with Heath.

No bar dar for planes under 500 feet would be good for gameplay, IMO. Gives all involved a chance to get in their shots at the risk of getting caught low. All countries would have to be vigilant and not just spawn wherever they saw the biggest friendly dar bar. I also think it would work if no dar bar appeared unless someone popped into the tower at the base under attack. Example: In the isles terrain, V6 is not that far from either A7 or A5, right? Say someone decides to NOE from A12, they take jabos, a couple goons, and go for it. They fly at wavetop level, deack the place, kill the VH, land the goon, take the base. The way I see it, with the numbers we have in the MA lately, out of about 120 people per side, one person is not gonna be looking at the map and thinking "Where are we vulnerable?"...........all it would take is a couple minutes to pop into a base and check. Once you pop in and spot the attackers, spawn or sound the alert. Spawning activates the dar bar (at least the way I think it should work), and your countrymen can choose to respond or ignore the threat.
For that matter, I think no dar bar for GV's in a sector would be interesting.......kinda like the NOE sneak attack in reverse.....you come rolling in on a target, no dar bar, then BOOM! GV's engage you, dar bar comes to life for both sides, and the battle is joined. Would be interesting to say the least. Almost would encourage some sort of recon flights............hehehe. And the best part is that neither side has an advantage over the other.......defenders would not know an attack is definitely coming, attackers would not know what awaits them.......til the furr started flying.........

Ripsnort · « **Reply #41 on:** November 13, 2001, 08:05:00 AM »

It's equal advantage to both agressor and defender...agressor gets to use routes to attack the enemy from various different points.

Defender will know when and where the agressor is coming from once within 25 miles of any field, via dot dar, regardless of altitude.

Agressor must pop up to to make a good attack without dying droves.

Defender already knows the agressor is popping up due to the 25 mile dot dar.

A huge furball ensures if defender chooses to challenge the agressor.

The odds of getting a goon in safely on a distant field is slim. If agressor does pull it off, more power to them.

To me, its a no brainer.

LePaul · « **Reply #42 on:** November 13, 2001, 10:10:00 AM »

I agree with Ripsnort....I've had a blast doing a few NOE Lancaster raids. Its one of the few times the fighters can't get under my belly and cream me! However, its a real trick to pop up high enough to get bombs off without being crucified by acks, if the fighter sweep hasn't already popped them.

The radar bar just plain stinks, to me. I understand its purpose but this awacs/jstar radar system is just a bit too much. Make folks rely on reconaissance flights to get a better idea of what the enemy is doing. Arado is a good platform for that, as well as the P38 and other birds. Chat buffer could actually be used for important communications for once!

Suggested future perk plane....

Aiswulf · « **Reply #43 on:** November 13, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »

Well here is my 2cents worth

I'm all for no dar below 500'
Just another aspect to use with strat

Lizard3 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 14, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »

And while we're making requests, how bout a bomb load of "windows" tinfoil for Lancs and B-17's so we can blanket there feild dot and bar dar for 30 minutes or so?