Author Topic: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"  (Read 5049 times)

Offline SD67

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2008, 09:29:10 PM »
They're called MISSiles for a reason :aok
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Offline mg1942

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2008, 09:44:59 PM »
Australia better replace F-111 before THIS missile see widespread service in Asia...

Offline CAP1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #152 on: September 18, 2008, 10:23:05 PM »
The F-117 is still stealthy, although not as stealthy as the F-22 and F-35, it still gets the job done quite nicely. Interesting, out of all the sorties it has flown in combat zones, only one has been lost to enemy fire. I'd say it works just fine.

The SR-71 was fired upon many times by SAMs. I know of at least one incident over Korea where the SR-71 pilot saw the missile trail coming upwards and said to his co-pilot....Oh look, they're shooting at us, and opened the throttle. That missile missed by something like 7 miles.  :D

guys........don't misunderstand me. i'm not puting our technology down. i am very very proud to be an american, and think we are the biggest baddest kid on the block........
 i just think that everyone is only looking at what WE do here. no one seems to think that the potential enemies of the US are going to do anything except to crap their pants when they realize that we have this technology. they WILL find ways to defeat it. hell, they may have already, even if we don't know they did....yet.
so that was the point i was trying to make. why spend the money on stealth which will be defeated, when that money can be better spent on the weapons systems, protecting the pilot/crew in combat, etc?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #153 on: September 18, 2008, 10:23:47 PM »
They're called MISSiles for a reason :aok
:rofl :rofl

true......and that would hold true for BVR engagements too.  :noid
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Offline Elfie

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #154 on: September 18, 2008, 11:19:02 PM »
Australia better replace F-111 before THIS missile see widespread service in Asia...

The F-111 has terrain following radar, it can come in under the radar nps. :)
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #155 on: September 19, 2008, 08:10:15 PM »
FYI

Setting the Record Straight on F-35
FORT WORTH, Texas, September 19th, 2008 -- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.

The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins.

"In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.

Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.

"The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."

The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.

Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey.

"It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team."

Here are the facts:

The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.
The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.
The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.
When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations.
Other important facts:

External weapon clearance is part of the current F-35 test program.
The government has already proven that no other aircraft can survive against the 5th generation stealth that only the F-22 and the F-35 possess; it is impossible to add this stealth to fourth-generation fighters.
The F-35's data collection, integration and information sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth.
F-35 is developing, testing, and fielding mature software years ahead of legacy programs, further reducing development risk. The F-35's advanced software, already flying on two test aircraft with remarkable stability, is demonstrating the advantages of developing highly-common, tri-variant aircraft. The software developed span the entire aircraft and support systems including the aircraft itself, logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation.
Rather than relying exclusively on flight testing, the F-35 is retiring development risk through the most comprehensive laboratories, sensor test beds, and integrated full-fusion flying test bed ever created for an aircraft program. Representing only 25% of our verification plans, still the F-35's flight test program is comparable in hours to the combined flight test programs of the three primary U.S. aircraft it will replace.
The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world - F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado - flown by 14 air forces.
In addition to 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No program in history has employed this many test vehicles.
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access -- all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again," said Burbage.

The F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5th generation stealth fighter. Three F-35 variants derived from a common design, developed together and using the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide will replace at least 13 types of aircraft for 11 nations initially, making the Lightning II the most cost-effective fighter program in history. Two F-35s have entered flight test, two are in ground test, and 17 are in various stages of assembly, including the first two production-model jets scheduled for delivery to the U.S. Air Force in 2010.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2007 sales of $41.9 billion.
F-35 and Lightning II are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation.


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...dstraight.html

Offline mg1942

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #156 on: September 19, 2008, 09:01:38 PM »

Here are the facts:

The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.

The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.

There's a reason why the rate of climb is still classified...


Offline Xasthur

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #157 on: September 19, 2008, 10:39:54 PM »
Australia better replace F-111 before THIS missile see widespread service in Asia...

Why?

This quote is from your article:

Quote
Australia's F-111s, if used cleverly, are arguably much more survivable against this class of technology than the vast majority of newer types in service - it should come as no surprise that the Bundes-Luftwaffe in Germany developed the terrain following Tornado ECR Wild Weasel precisely around this regime of attack on the SA-10/20/12.

 :P
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #158 on: September 19, 2008, 11:55:35 PM »
FYI

Setting the Record Straight on F-35
FORT WORTH, Texas, September 19th, 2008 -- U.S. Air Force analyses show the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market.

The Air Force's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins.

"In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.

Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.

"The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."

The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.

Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey.

"It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team."

Here are the facts:

The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.
The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.
The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.
When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations.
Other important facts:

External weapon clearance is part of the current F-35 test program.
The government has already proven that no other aircraft can survive against the 5th generation stealth that only the F-22 and the F-35 possess; it is impossible to add this stealth to fourth-generation fighters.
The F-35's data collection, integration and information sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth.
F-35 is developing, testing, and fielding mature software years ahead of legacy programs, further reducing development risk. The F-35's advanced software, already flying on two test aircraft with remarkable stability, is demonstrating the advantages of developing highly-common, tri-variant aircraft. The software developed span the entire aircraft and support systems including the aircraft itself, logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation.
Rather than relying exclusively on flight testing, the F-35 is retiring development risk through the most comprehensive laboratories, sensor test beds, and integrated full-fusion flying test bed ever created for an aircraft program. Representing only 25% of our verification plans, still the F-35's flight test program is comparable in hours to the combined flight test programs of the three primary U.S. aircraft it will replace.
The F-35 is one aircraft program designed to replace many different types of aircraft around the world - F-16, F/A-18, F-117, A-10, AV-8B, Sea Harrier, GR.7, F-111 and Tornado - flown by 14 air forces.
In addition to 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No program in history has employed this many test vehicles.
"Simply put, advanced stealth and sensor fusion allow the F-35 pilot to see, target and destroy the adversary and strategic targets in a very high surface-to-air threat scenario, and deal with air threats intent on denying access -- all before the F-35 is ever detected, then return safely to do it again," said Burbage.

The F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5th generation stealth fighter. Three F-35 variants derived from a common design, developed together and using the same sustainment infrastructure worldwide will replace at least 13 types of aircraft for 11 nations initially, making the Lightning II the most cost-effective fighter program in history. Two F-35s have entered flight test, two are in ground test, and 17 are in various stages of assembly, including the first two production-model jets scheduled for delivery to the U.S. Air Force in 2010.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2007 sales of $41.9 billion.
F-35 and Lightning II are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation.


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...dstraight.html

very very well written.

but you've no idea how hard i'm slamming my head against the wall right now.

yes, thre US IS the best. yes, there is no technology to match ours...............CURRENTLY.
if WE have it, you all KNOW THEY'LL have it sooner or later. orrrrrr, they'll have found a way to defeat the stealth.
i love being an american and being able to brag about the stuff we have, but c'mon guys.......this isn't dogfights. this is the real thing. if we launch missles from our "invisible" aircraft, the bad guys ain't gonna fly straight into em like everyone seems to think.
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Offline SD67

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2008, 06:26:53 AM »
So.. Who do you believe?
As expected, L.M. have come out swinging, but the methods they use for their comparisons appear a little biased. Seriously, 400% more effective than the best fighters currently available?  :rolleyes:
Quote from: reprinted with permission from ANN
Lockheed Martin 'Sets The Record Straight' On F-35 Lightning II

Former Defense Secretary Aide Says JSF Is "A Dog"

US Air Force analyses show the F-35 Lightning II is at least 400 percent more effective in air-to-air combat capability than the best fighters currently available in the international market, according to the plane's manufacturer Lockheed Martin.

That terse statement comes following claims made last week by industry watcher Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey, an aide to then-Defense Secretary James Schlesinger in the early 1970s. Sprey was a member of the team that produced such accomplished fighters as the F-16, and A-10 Warthog... and he says recent combat simulations against a variety of current aircraft show "the F-35 is a dog," when compared against Saab's Gripen, the Dassault Rafale, MiG-35 and Sukhoi Su-35, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Sprey's comments came after reports in Australian newspapers earlier this month, that claimed F-35s were "clubbed like baby seals" by simulated Sukhois during the Pacific Vision 2008 wargames exercise in Hawaii.

Lockheed maintains that in using the USAF's standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, the F-35 was pitted against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios. "The results were clear: the F-35 outperformed the most highly evolved fighters in aerial combat by significant margins," Lockheed claims.

"In all F-35 Program Office and US Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.

Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in simulated combat are untrue, Davis added.

"The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact," Maj. Gen. Davis said. "The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges."

Lockheed described the Pacific Vision Wargame as "a table-top exercise," designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities. It did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.

"It's not clear why they attacked the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president of F-35 program integration. "It is clear they don't understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 program, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team.

"The critics seem to get credibility, but the program doesn't," Burbage added.

Sprey and Wheeler stand by their accusations... saying the F-35 appears too fast for a tactical role, too 'delicate' in head-to-head combat, and too flammable to withstand sustained rounds from ground fire, according to Reuters.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=83502215-e0ee-4f90-a795-62ba6b34e212&
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 06:29:40 AM by SD67 »
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Offline Hornet33

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2008, 08:04:34 AM »
You have to figure that the 400% is an all inclusive number. Performance, cost to build and maintain, cost to train pilots and ground crew for all branches of service, ext.

When 1 plane is being designed to replace upwards of a dozen current aircraft, the 400% number makes more sense.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2008, 08:04:52 AM »
So.. Who do you believe?
As expected, L.M. have come out swinging, but the methods they use for their comparisons appear a little biased. Seriously, 400% more effective than the best fighters currently available?  :rolleyes:http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=83502215-e0ee-4f90-a795-62ba6b34e212&

take a dozen active military combat pilots. take them and the F35 to germany and fly it in a "red flag" type of scenario against the current luftwaffe.
 they NEED to be just current pilots though. not ones that are going to be biased as a test pilot might be. ones that will end up in this fighter if it sees service. that'll be the most honest opinions you'll get.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2008, 10:19:07 AM »
take a dozen active military combat pilots. take them and the F35 to germany and fly it in a "red flag" type of scenario against the current luftwaffe.
 they NEED to be just current pilots though. not ones that are going to be biased as a test pilot might be. ones that will end up in this fighter if it sees service. that'll be the most honest opinions you'll get.

Not really. The "Joint Fighter Conference" held during World War II comes to mind.
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Offline SD67

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2008, 04:18:41 PM »
You have to figure that the 400% is an all inclusive number. Performance, cost to build and maintain, cost to train pilots and ground crew for all branches of service, ext.

When 1 plane is being designed to replace upwards of a dozen current aircraft, the 400% number makes more sense.
Maybe Hornet, but that article specifically said 400% more effective in air to air combat not overall.
Sounds too good to be true.
take a dozen active military combat pilots. take them and the F35 to germany and fly it in a "red flag" type of scenario against the current luftwaffe.
 they NEED to be just current pilots though. not ones that are going to be biased as a test pilot might be. ones that will end up in this fighter if it sees service. that'll be the most honest opinions you'll get.
Yeah, that seems like it would be the way to go too. I wonder if the Russians, French and Swedes could be convinced to join in as well? It would be interesting to see it pitted against the best aircraft that Europe has to offer. It certainly would boost sales IF the JSF came put on top wouldn't it?
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2008, 05:57:37 PM »
guys........don't misunderstand me. i'm not puting our technology down. i am very very proud to be an american, and think we are the biggest baddest kid on the block........
 i just think that everyone is only looking at what WE do here. no one seems to think that the potential enemies of the US are going to do anything except to crap their pants when they realize that we have this technology. they WILL find ways to defeat it. hell, they may have already, even if we don't know they did....yet.
so that was the point i was trying to make. why spend the money on stealth which will be defeated, when that money can be better spent on the weapons systems, protecting the pilot/crew in combat, etc?

We did. The F-22 is one of the most nimble airplanes ever made. When its stealth is added to the equation it is the most invincible air superiority fighter in history.

Cap instead of making all kinds of loony predictions let me give you one piece of advice. Type "defeating stealth" into a search engine and try and find some concrete facts to support your conclusions.

Stealth was never intended to be invincible, even if it basically has been. It was designed to provide a war winning edge for its operators. It was designed to defeat the type of radars it would actually go up against in combat. And even then pilots will use standard radar avoidance tactics to enhance their stealth. Besides these radars will be hit hard as well per standard doctrine.

War technology will always be a horse race. There may well be a time when stealth will be useless. But its not going to be anytime in our lifetimes.
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