German reconnaissance efforts against Britain- 1943-1944

[iTunes]

Just curious if anyone has any knowledge of the above? I was thinking of the D-Day build up and if any German aircraft ever done a fly over of the southern coast.
iTunes

[Rich46yo]

Just curious if anyone has any knowledge of the above? I was thinking of the D-Day build up and if any German aircraft ever done a fly over of the southern coast.
iTunes

I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.

And yes there were successful flyovers by German reconnaissance aircraft who did report the presence of these phantom armies. And not just in the south either, the Allies also had a similar deception plan in the north of England to make the Germans think we were going to invade Norway too. I dont know what type of German aircraft was used but I dont think the AR-234 was operational yet.

Actually deceiving spy cameras was relatively easy compared to the threat of spies themselves. We bombed the Pas de Calais area far more heavily pre-D-day then we did Normandy to further the deception. So, I dont know what kind of Luftwaffe Reco aircraft was used but I do know there were successful overflights of the buildup by the Germans. In fact we were counting on it.

[Cthulhu]

I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.

And yes there were successful flyovers by German reconnaissance aircraft who did report the presence of these phantom armies. And not just in the south either, the Allies also had a similar deception plan in the north of England to make the Germans think we were going to invade Norway too. I dont know what type of German aircraft was used but I dont think the AR-234 was operational yet.

Actually deceiving spy cameras was relatively easy compared to the threat of spies themselves. We bombed the Pas de Calais area far more heavily pre-D-day then we did Normandy to further the deception. So, I dont know what kind of Luftwaffe Reco aircraft was used but I do know there were successful overflights of the buildup by the Germans. In fact we were counting on it.

Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.

[Furball]

Ju-188 perhaps?

It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them.  Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway.

Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.

I think they withdrew them from service after the RAF started sending up modified Spitfires after them.  IIRC the highest recorded confirmed kill ever was made by a modified Spitfire V on a Ju86 over the med at 40,000 or so.

[Chalenge]

The only aircraft I have read about getting shot down in the act of recon was identified by the night fighter pilot as a 110.

[Rich46yo]

Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.

Thanks. It would make for interesting research to track down the exact aircraft that snapped pictures which furthered the effectivness of FORTITUDE. Maybe one day when I have the time.....

[Charge]

"It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them.  Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway."

At that stage there was not much of a bomber force to attack anything effectively due to utterly stupid Steibock campaign. And Steinbock operations were flown during the night which explains why they didn't hit "anything" -at least anything specific. And what would they hit? Towns? London? How can you miss London with a bomb? I've been over London in an aircraft and to me it seems impossible.

Being faced with a concentration of NF Mossies operating over London and radar guided AAA batteries I certainly would dump my ordnance along the way into the darkness and head for home, especially if it is evident that the loss rate is very alarming. I also doubt if there was willingness to risk life to get a few bombs on civilian targets, which effect was at that stage known to be nothing.

I don't think German pilots were more incompetent or stupid than aviators of any other nation but they were certainly handicapped by stupid political aspirations of their leadership which went as far as hampering the strategy of how Germany used its diminishing resources both in men and machines.

-C+

[Cthulhu]

Ju-188 perhaps?
I think they withdrew them from service after the RAF started sending up modified Spitfires after them.  IIRC the highest recorded confirmed kill ever was made by a modified Spitfire V on a Ju86 over the med at 40,000 or so.

It was over Egypt. And it was closer to 49,000ft. Redefines "pilot discomfort" for the poor RAF guy don't ya think?

[iTunes]

The Allies could range far and wide and yet the Germans couldn't get over the Channel ?
I've been looking for RAF reports but can't find any

[Schlowy]

"complete failure" ... whatever.

109's and 190s were pwning plenty:
1) Eastern front vs Russia flying Russian and USA aircraft.
2) Southern front vs USA in Italy. (Tuskegees for example)
3) Western front vs USA bombers in the air.
Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.

USA pilots and crews fighting at the Russian front vs Germany.
1) While on the topic, USA flying from North Africa to Axis held Romania, oil fields. (usa pilots eastern front)
2) Hartman's interview speaks of USA p51's with USA pilots doing missions on the eastern front.
3) Some incident also of USA bombers and pilots 'accidentally' bombing russian troops ticking off stalin... (my guess was just to show Russia what the USA could do.)

Yep, whatever.

[thrila]

The UK would have been porked all right, just look at the crushing defeat they suffered during the Battle of Britain.

[MiloMorai]

   Poor Scholtz.

It was the complete failure of the LW to do anything about the massive troop build up in GB for the invasion in Normandy.

Furball, I think you will find those were Spit Mk Vs. There was some high altitude interception over GB but these were Spit Mk IXs.

[Furball]

"complete failure" ... whatever.

109's and 190s were pwning plenty:
1) Eastern front vs Russia flying Russian and USA aircraft.
2) Southern front vs USA in Italy. (Tuskegees for example)
3) Western front vs USA bombers in the air.
Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.

USA pilots and crews fighting at the Russian front vs Germany.
1) While on the topic, USA flying from North Africa to Axis held Romania, oil fields. (usa pilots eastern front)
2) Hartman's interview speaks of USA p51's with USA pilots doing missions on the eastern front.
3) Some incident also of USA bombers and pilots 'accidentally' bombing russian troops ticking off stalin... (my guess was just to show Russia what the USA could do.)

Yep, whatever.

So... an air force incapable of effective attack, or one which is unable to defend its own territory or troops.  Pwning?  Whatever indeed.

"It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them.  Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway."

At that stage there was not much of a bomber force to attack anything effectively due to utterly stupid Steibock campaign. And Steinbock operations were flown during the night which explains why they didn't hit "anything" -at least anything specific. And what would they hit? Towns? London? How can you miss London with a bomb? I've been over London in an aircraft and to me it seems impossible.

Being faced with a concentration of NF Mossies operating over London and radar guided AAA batteries I certainly would dump my ordnance along the way into the darkness and head for home, especially if it is evident that the loss rate is very alarming. I also doubt if there was willingness to risk life to get a few bombs on civilian targets, which effect was at that stage known to be nothing.

I don't think German pilots were more incompetent or stupid than aviators of any other nation but they were certainly handicapped by stupid political aspirations of their leadership which went as far as hampering the strategy of how Germany used its diminishing resources both in men and machines.

-C+

I agree, they did use pathfinders but even then hardly any bombs landed on London.  I also agree that the problems were at a higher level.

[B3YT]

"
Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.



Yep, whatever.

to quote an Americanism : What ever!

for your information the UK  would not have been "porked"  as the Luftwaffe were losing planes faster than the UK and the UK were building them faster than they were losing them.  YOU my friend are mistaken

[Grendel]

To my shallow understanding by 1944 there were primarily two aircraft that were able to operate over Britain:
Arado 240 and Arado 234. The latter, the jet plane, came into use only in the summer/autumm 1944. Before that the sole type capable of operating over British Isles in daylight recon role was Arado 240, that might be described as the German equivalent of Japanese Dinah, for its capability to operate successfully in enemy airspace.