Republicans really need a black candidate because

[Bodhi]

Yarbles,
What is your perception of the EU and it's collective drain by the lesser nations on the nations that have more?

[Yarbles]

Yarbles,
What is your perception of the EU and it's collective drain by the lesser nations on the nations that have more?

I think that the region as a whole has benefited from the Union and I think the individual nations have all benefited as well. I also think that the requirement of being a Liberal domocracy to join has been of net benefit to the world in general.

Now what I am trying to ask you is do you think Social welfare where it doesnt create avoidable dependancy or harm the individuals opportunity to improve themself is morally right.

 

[sluggish]

I think that the region as a whole has benefited from the Union and I think the individual nations have all benefited as well. I also think that the requirement of being a Liberal domocracy to join has been of net benefit to the world in general.

Now what I am trying to ask you is do you think Social welfare where it doesnt create avoidable dependancy or harm the individuals opportunity to improve themself is morally right.

 

My government is not a charity organization; that's what churches and, yes, charity organizations are for.  It is immoral for any government to forcibly compell any citizen to contribute to any charity.  Philanthropy is for philanthropists, not politicians.

[lazs2]

yarbles.. lets add 12 million illegal aliens who don't speak english to you socialist paradise and see how well you treat "those less privileged"   Lets get you a negro population of 17% and see how you do.

Name one your-0-peean country that has the burden of REAL diversity that we do..  hell  your whole tiny little island has a huge moat around it....  you don't have to build a fence.

lazs

[Yarbles]

yarbles.. lets add 12 million illegal aliens who don't speak english to you socialist paradise and see how well you treat "those less privileged"   Lets get you a negro population of 17% and see how you do.

Name one your-0-peean country that has the burden of REAL diversity that we do..  hell  your whole tiny little island has a huge moat around it....  you don't have to build a fence.

lazs

I am sure there is something in what you are saying though the part of London I live in is 30% Affro Carribean and around 30% Turkish and the remainder are certainly not all caucasion. Britain has a large Asian (Indian asian) and Afro carribean population. I would say that the Asian population from my understanding of social indicators are in general a net asset and unfortunately when it comes to measures like crime and reciept of welfare, educational achivement and rate of single parents etc the Affro Cariibean community are not.

We have our malingerers and proffesional welfare recipients with huge families that have never worked but they are a minority and we work to reduce their numbers. Its an interesting point you are making but if you could afford a welfare type market economy like most of western europe has would you find it desireable. I personally like the idea of people having a safety net especially as its the children of the poor and inadequate who suffer the most and genuinely through no fault of their own.

     

[Bodhi]

I think that the region as a whole has benefited from the Union and I think the individual nations have all benefited as well. I also think that the requirement of being a Liberal domocracy to join has been of net benefit to the world in general.

Now what I am trying to ask you is do you think Social welfare where it doesnt create avoidable dependancy or harm the individuals opportunity to improve themself is morally right.

 

I think a basic form of social welfare has to exist for those that simply are physically or mentally incapable of working.  There are also unforeseen events that exist where people will need temporary assistance. 

I do not support long term welfare in any way shape or form for people that refuse to get off it.  Another thing I support is mandatory drug testing and mandatory birth control for those receiving welfare.

[Yarbles]

I think a basic form of social welfare has to exist for those that simply are physically or mentally incapable of working.  There are also unforeseen events that exist where people will need temporary assistance. 

I do not support long term welfare in any way shape or form for people that refuse to get off it.  Another thing I support is mandatory drug testing and mandatory birth control for those receiving welfare.

It appears that once we get past the Socialist/Capitalist issue there is much to be agreed upon. I dont think anyone with anything serious between the ears would advocate a centrally planned economy re distributing wealth for its own sake. Where the state creates dependance it makes its recipients victims dissenpowering the individuals involved. It seems that the most succesfull nations with a high standard of welfare are small and monocultural and perhaps their approach wouldnt work in a country as large and diverse as the USA. Perhaps greater decentralisation would offer opportunities for an effective social policy.

[Bodhi]

It appears that once we get past the Socialist/Capitalist issue there is much to be agreed upon. I dont think anyone with anything serious between the ears would advocate a centrally planned economy re distributing wealth for its own sake. Where the state creates dependance it makes its recipients victims dissenpowering the individuals involved. It seems that the most succesfull nations with a high standard of welfare are small and monocultural and perhaps their approach wouldnt work in a country as large and diverse as the USA. Perhaps greater decentralisation would offer opportunities for an effective social policy.

Absolutely.

The thing I see though is we are not getting past the decentralization and are creating a dependent class of people in both the US and Europe.  I always stick with the fact that a population that is taxed less tends to spend more thereby creating a thriving economy.  Our government is sorely lacking in that understanding, and it seems many European governments have no clue what that is.  Far be it for me to complain about European nations, I am nit a citizen there, and therefore have no say in how they should run things.  I am a citizen of the USofA, and as you can probably deduce from my posts, I take a very sour view on those that think we need to redistribute my wealth to those that refuse to work for their own.  That and giving money to nations that despise us...  both are fairly large pet peeves of mine.

[Yarbles]

Absolutely.

The thing I see though is we are not getting past the decentralization and are creating a dependent class of people in both the US and Europe.  I always stick with the fact that a population that is taxed less tends to spend more thereby creating a thriving economy.  Our government is sorely lacking in that understanding, and it seems many European governments have no clue what that is.  Far be it for me to complain about European nations, I am nit a citizen there, and therefore have no say in how they should run things.  I am a citizen of the USofA, and as you can probably deduce from my posts, I take a very sour view on those that think we need to redistribute my wealth to those that refuse to work for their own.  That and giving money to nations that despise us...  both are fairly large pet peeves of mine.

I think we are becoming aware of the dependant class in Europe through experience of rising welfare costs and most initiatives involve and element of coercion as in do this or we stop your money. We are also looking at getting the private secotr involved in back to work programmes and paying companies by results in terms of how many people they get back to work. The problem I believe is now one of proper effective administration rather than ideology. No one really believes that socialism will work the best sytem we have is the market economy with limited state intervention.

BTW If we had your gun laws our murder rate would probably be about the same as yours as in about 40x higher. Thats right 40 times as many people killed as now. It is a price I believe you or the majority of US citizens are willing to pay. If there was a referendum on adopting US style laws I think we would vote against and no one ever even brings it up as an issue.  No problem as far as I am concerned I am all for domocracy.

[Bodhi]

I think we are becoming aware of the dependant class in Europe through experience of rising welfare costs and most initiatives involve and element of coercion as in do this or we stop your money. We are also looking at getting the private secotr involved in back to work programmes and paying companies by results in terms of how many people they get back to work. The problem I believe is now one of proper effective administration rather than ideology. No one really believes that socialism will work the best sytem we have is the market economy with limited state intervention.

BTW If we had your gun laws our murder rate would probably be about the same as yours as in about 40x higher. Thats right 40 times as many people killed as now. It is a price I believe you or the majority of US citizens are willing to pay. If there was a referendum on adopting US style laws I think we would vote against and no one ever even brings it up as an issue.  No problem as far as I am concerned I am all for domocracy.

Yarbles from what I read, you definitely need to get a handle on the dependent class and the connection between uneducated immigrants leaching off your systems.  It is historically what brings down nations.  Getting the private sector involved is great, but instead of actually paying them, give them tax breaks for employing those that were previously unemployed.  Instead of just giving money back to them, you'd allow them to put it back into the economy and eliminate the middle man, ie. the government.

I don't know how gun control got into this, but I don't think our murder rate has anything to do with gun control.  It has to do with people wanting something for nothing, and that whole class of dependents turning to crime as opposed to legitimate work.  Whether Europeans want to have guns or not is really irrelevant.  At this point, considering the mass inundation of Militant Islamic Immigrants into Europe, I'd think that the law abiing population being armed might be good for future safety.

[Yarbles]

Yarbles from what I read, you definitely need to get a handle on the dependent class and the connection between uneducated immigrants leaching off your systems.  It is historically what brings down nations.  Getting the private sector involved is great, but instead of actually paying them, give them tax breaks for employing those that were previously unemployed.  Instead of just giving money back to them, you'd allow them to put it back into the economy and eliminate the middle man, ie. the government.

The vast majority of our current immigration is young single people from Eastern Europe. They are typically highly educated  and come as our incomes are 4x what theirs are. They also tend not to stay so come over pay taxes dont draw benefits and leave before they get sick and old.

[Bodhi]

The vast majority of our current immigration is young single people from Eastern Europe. They are typically highly educated  and come as our incomes are 4x what theirs are. They also tend not to stay so come over pay taxes dont draw benefits and leave before they get sick and old.

England, maybe, the rest of the EU... that's a whole different story.

[Timofei]

Yarbles from what I read, you definitely need to get a handle on the dependent class I'd think that the law abiing population being armed might be good for future safety.

LOL, you must protect yourself from "uneducated immigrants leaching off your systems".
Sounds like:
General Jack D. Ripper: "Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. "

[Bodhi]

Timofei, if you are happy with people coming to your country and leaching off it, fine by me, it is your country.  Just don't be surprised when that 40+% tax rate goes upwards of 50 - 60 %.  It won't be so funny then.

[Yarbles]

Timofei, if you are happy with people coming to your country and leaching off it, fine by me, it is your country.  Just don't be surprised when that 40+% tax rate goes upwards of 50 - 60 %.  It won't be so funny then.

My wife teaches immigrants to speak English there are some that want to work and make a contiribution and others that just want to abuse the system. I am not sure how best to convince the freeloaders to make more of an effort and seperate the genuine from the bogus assylum seekers. I think more initiatives are needed to make the system of aid or welfare fare. The problem is when there is corporate fraud and the the higher echelons of society find ways of paying no taxes at all it undermines the integrity of the whole sytem of taxes and benefits. It is difficult tobe harsh on the poorere members of society when Government and Big Businees are regularly gettng their noses in the trough.