Author Topic: SATA RAID questions  (Read 835 times)

Offline Krusty

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SATA RAID questions
« on: September 16, 2008, 12:45:56 PM »
So, RAID has increased performance with read times, and depending on the RAID setup with write times (or not). Some setups have redundancy (which appeals to me).

Assuming a RAID setup with redundancy or parity, some way of recovering if a HD goes bad, how many drives would one need? I know you can do it with as little as 3 (maybe even 2?) but you probably don't start getting the improved read/seek times until you have 4-5 drives, right?

Assuming you have a motherboard with 6 or 8 SATA 3.0 plugs, what if you have a SATA optical drive and then 5 RAID HDs? Will it think the CD-ROM is part of the RAID and cause problems, or are most systems smart enough to only use the hard drives?

I notice a lot of people go for multiple smaller drives (say 50GB x 5 drives). Is there an advantage to this, other than keeping costs down?

Can you mix drive sizes? Say you have 3x 50GB, and have a 120GB? Can that 120GB be part of the RAID? I would guess "no" but I don't know. Also, can you separate a HD from the RAID so that the RAID is "drive C:" and the 120GB is "Drive D:" ?

I've read a little about the RAID setup in general, been looking at a couple of webpages, but none of them answered these practical questions I had.

Offline Fulmar

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 01:29:09 PM »
RAID 1 would mirror two drives.  RAID 5 requires 4 drives.  Raid 5 will give you read speeds close to Raid 0.

For RAID 1:  Increased read performance occurs when using a multi-threaded operating system that supports split seeks, very small performance reduction when writing. Array continues to operate so long as at least one drive is functioning.**

Ford RAID 5: Distributed parity requires all drives but one to be present to operate; drive failure requires replacement, but the array is not destroyed by a single drive failure. Upon drive failure, any subsequent reads can be calculated from the distributed parity such that the drive failure is masked from the end user. The array will have data loss in the event of a second drive failure and is vulnerable until the data that was on the failed drive is rebuilt onto a replacement drive.**

You can build an array with non-identical drives, however the array will assume the capacity and performance of the smallest and slowest drive.  I.E a 80gb 5400 RPM and a 250gb 7200 RPM will be seen as 80gb and access times will suffer.  No buddy does this really, unless the drives are fairly similar.  Not sure if it causes problems.  There is JBOD (Just a bunch of Drives) which can combine drives of different sizes to be seen as one drive as a combined capacity but provides no redundancy.

Or you could do a Nested RAID 0+1 etc:
When nesting RAID levels, a RAID type that provides redundancy is typically combined with RAID 0 to boost performance. With these configurations it is preferable to have RAID 0 on top and the redundant array at the bottom, because fewer disks then need to be regenerated when a disk fails. (Thus, RAID 1+0 is preferable to RAID 0+1 but the administrative advantages of "splitting the mirror" of RAID 1 would be lost. It should be noted, however, that the on disk layout of blocks for RAID 1+0 and RAID 0+1 setups are identical so these limitations are purely in the software).**

**Wikipedia

Personally, I use RAID 0 in my current setup for several reasons.  When I originally built my current system I bought the hard drives at different times.  I originally had 1 250gb Maxtor and almost a year later added an identical drive (was discontinued but got it open box cheap).  I took the risk of data loss, but for important data I always had several back ups on DVD or on my web server.  Currently I still have my RAID 0 array on the same drives but have added a single 500 Seagate as another backup option.  I'm also experimenting using FreeNAS on my old box as a file server.

I recently did a HDtach on my Raid drives and my lone Seagate drive.  I get about 105-107Mbps burst read (I think? or was it write, whichever) on my 2x250gb Maxtors and about 75Mbps on the Seagate.  Access times were 14ms on the Maxtors and 12 on the Seagate.  The Maxtors (alone) don't spec as high as the Seagate in access times and cache.  Same RPM.

Raid does suck when you want to re/install Windows (XP yes, Vista?) as you'll need that ancient floppy drive to load the drivers for RAID.

***Also, I'm no where an expert on RAID and know the basics beyond 0/1.  I'm sure there are there posters here that can fill in or correct me.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 01:37:38 PM by Fulmar »
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 04:03:17 PM »
Raid5 requires only 3 drives. A pair in striped 0 and one drive handling the parity.

Raid 0+1 or 1+0 requires 4 drives.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 04:09:02 PM »
This RAID 0+1 and 1+0 confuses me... I apparently didn't look too hard, as I haven't run across them yet. Have any links that describe what they do?

Offline Chalenge

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 04:14:38 PM »
I looked into this when I started to build my latest system Krusty and my conclusion was that within the realm of desktop systems RAID arrays become a money pit of aggravation with almost no return on investment. If you find out otherwise please let me know.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 04:24:48 PM »
I'm mostly thinking about load/seek times for game files (level loads, swapping, etc) but it could also apply to editing projects and video files I work with from time to time, as well.

My CPU/RAM/GPU is fairly decent, and I don't have anywhere near the delay my old PC had while changing levels in HL2, but I still have a bit of a delay. Also the preloading of textures in AH2 I'd like to speed up if I could. It's an I/O issue. My drive is a Sata 1.5 connected drive and much faster than my old IDE, but I wonder how I could speed this up a bit.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 05:40:06 PM »
Im afraid most of what I have to say on speed would foment anti-Microsoft rebellion from individuals that claim to know better. I would buy the fastest hard drive you can get your hands on (10000 rpm SATA II 3 Gb/s or SCSI if you can) and add more RAM. I doubt very much that any RAID system driven by 'onboard controllers' would give you much benefit but mostly lead to failed components and aggravation and I think anything properly designed for performance would be too costly. I dont have much experience with RAM drives but that is another possible alternative.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 05:55:31 PM »
My OLD system with SATA RAID and two WD Raptor 10,000 RPM 37 gig drives was very fast. That was an old Soltek board. My new Asus board has refused to allow me to set up RAID, and even though I have 4 times the RAM (it's nearly twice as fast as my older memory) and a much faster processor, not to mention a better video card with more and faster memory, it is NOT as fast as my old Soltek rig for AHII. I hope to one day have a full weekend to back everything up on both drives, and reload Windows 2000 Pro, setting up RAID in the process. This rig I have now should be a beast, but it is just decent.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 06:19:29 PM »
There is another possibility I would like more analysis of. This is a company that produces SSDs for desktop use and this is supposed to really speed up load times for applications under Vista and using ReadBoost (which I thought was of no use but...):

https://www.cenatek.com/product_page_rocket_drive_micro.php

And a free software RAMdisk to try:

http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/05/27/free-ramdisk-for-windows-vista-xp-2000-and-2003-server/
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 06:44:44 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 10:23:18 AM »
I kind of wanted to stay away from SSD after reading some of the comments on Intel's new line of drives (the other thread), and I only have 2 GB so I think dividing that up for a RAM drive might be detrimental overall.

I wonder if you could get a RAID for Intel SSDs? WOW that would be expensive in an ungodly way, but the data redundancy would be nice, and the super fast drive in RAID would be even faster, right?

Offline Bino

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 10:33:51 AM »
This RAID 0+1 and 1+0 confuses me... I apparently didn't look too hard, as I haven't run across them yet. Have any links that describe what they do?

Krusty, just imagine two RAID-0 (striped) pairs next to each other, as a mirrored pair of striped pairs.  It costs more, since you have four  drives involved, but you get both the performance increases of striping and the security of mirroring.

Here is a good two-page PDF primer on RAID from the Adaptec web site:

http://www.adaptec.com/NR/rdonlyres/84938C6A-1431-4C78-8E08-8DFA064A7F34/0/abc_RAID_LRes.pdf


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Offline Krusty

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 12:04:29 PM »
Okay, that explains it. Thanks.

Offline eagl

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 09:16:16 PM »
I've seen benchmarks of real-world performance for raid 1, raid 0, and raid 1+0...

Raid 1 on typical mobo controllers is quite a bit slower than single drive performance.
Raid 0 on the same controllers is up to 50% faster, but seek times are nearly identical and typical overall performance is maybe 20% improvement.
Raid 0+1 on the same mobo controller gets you about the same performance as a single drive.

The problem is that although with RAID 0+1 you have redundancy, you also have 4x the chance of a drive failing.  So yes you're protected against a single drive failure, but there is a 4x chance that you'll see a drive failure in the first place.

Personally, after trying out fast single drives and RAID 0 setups, I go with a single drive plus a daily full-system RAID 5 backup using a second system on my LAN (I got lazy and bought an Infrant ReadyNAS+ and put 4 500GB drives in it).  I could easily switch to my primary system using RAID 0 and keep the RAID 5 backup scheme, and get the best of both worlds - decent backups that don't care about the architecture of the primary drive system, and RAID 0 speeds.  But I had a good year with regards to savings, so I had a little spare cash to throw at the problem.  Most people will be just fine with a single drive in their primary rig, and a single backup drive either in the same or a different system on the LAN, using automated daily backups.

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Offline Bino

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2008, 10:18:48 PM »
...
Raid 1 on typical mobo controllers is quite a bit slower than single drive performance.
...

For the typical mobo implementation of RAID-on-a-chip, you are right, sir. Especially for writes. It is not likely to have the smarts - or cache - to be able to write that 2nd copy to disk during a subsequent lull in system activity.

Obviously, it pays performance dividends if you throw more hardware (real RAID controller with battery-backed RAM) at the problem.  ;)


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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: SATA RAID questions
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 09:16:24 AM »
I run a 1+0 and HD tach reported almost a double improvement in read/write performance. The I/O feels snappy also.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone