Pakistan to fire on any US forces

[Stalwart]

Oh, by the way, I think you would find the origin of the word "mafia" very interesting and pertinent to this conversation.  Check it out.  It will at least be interesting reading.

Well, I re-researched the word Mafia, and as it turns out the origin is disputed.  I was alluding to the argument that the origin derived from the resistance of Sicilians to their oppressive invaders.

[Stalwart]

Nils, if a band or group of AQ launched attacks on NATO troops from and returned to an ungoverned portion of Norway for 7 years without hindrance from your government we'd no doubt have something to talk about.

Very eloquently put, Hangtime.

[1pLUs44]

I look at it as Pakistan not doing the job they agreeded to do while taking or money for military aid. If they aren't going to do it, then we have too. With that said it's just another example of how Bush & co has mis-managed both of these wars. Had Bush not pulled the troops out of Afghanistan before the job was done, to go play nation building in Iraq, we likely wouldn't be having these problems on both fronts.

We arent having that problem in Iraq anymore. US troops pulled out of the most dangerous part of Iraq, and 8000 are gonna go home by the end of October IIRC.

[1pLUs44]

Didn't all of you condem Russia going into Georgia??????????

How can crossing another contries borders be OK????????

Remember that Pakistan is a nuclear county

There is no other treaty like we have in North America that allows soldiers to cross borders in case of national security.

They'd be out of their minds if they tried anything along those lines.

[SD67]

"According to Cesareo, the word is of Arabic origin, but Pitré does not agree. He simply does not know. He only knows that the word was common in the Borgo section of Palermo and that it meant beauty, charm, perfection, excellence. Thus in Palermo, street vendors, or peddlers would advertise their brooms as scupi d''a mafia! Haju chiddi mafiusi veruu (Brooms that can't be beat! I have the real stuff).

"Capuana, the novelist, found that the word had the same meaning in Catania, where there has never been any Mafia. 'Mafia and its derivatives,' he wrote, 'always meant and do mean 'beauty, charm, perfection, excellence' in their field. Una ragazza mafiosa (a smart-looking girl); mafiusedda (rather charming, neat); casa mafiusedda (a fine looking house). The word mafia adds to the idea of beauty the idea of superiority, of bravery, the feeling of being a man, boldness, but never in the sense of arrogance or braggadocio. After 1860, however, it acquired a new meaning."

Henner Hess, in Mafia & Mafiosi: Origin, Power and Myth. Trans. Ewald Osers.

 New York: NYUP, 1998, cites the same sources as Schiavo, and expands on his definitions. For him the word also has connotations of "boldness, ambition, arrogance" (1, Sciascia 1964). And, "A mafioso is simply a courageous, brave fellow who won't stand any nonsense from anyone" (1, Pitré 1889). He says that some believe that the word derives from the Arabic, "either from mahias, meaning a bold man or a braggart, or from Ma afir, the name of the Saracen tribe that ruled Palermo. A third theory of Arab origin relates mafia to maha, a quarry or a cave in a rock. The mafie, the tuff caves in the Marsala region, served the persecuted Saracens as hiding places and later provided hide-outs for other fugitives" (2, Lestingi 1884). Hess states that Giuseppe Loschiavo (not to be confused with Giovanni Schiavo) writes that before Garibaldi's landing, "the rebellious Sicilians had hidden out in the mafie near Marsala and had therefore subsequently, during their successful advance on Palermo, been called mafiosi, the people from the mafie" (2, Loschiavo 1964).

Hess goes on to write that the "term gained currency and first appeared in official language in 1865. In a letter of 10 August, 1865, the delegato di Pubblica Sicurezza, the police agent, in Carini justifies an arrest by the charge that the arrested man had committed the delitto di mafia" (3). " Gradually the delitto di mafia came to mean more the offence of manutengolo, of being a fence or planner of crimes, and not so much the offence of malandrino, of banditry, of being an executant criminal.

Eventually the word mafia was used, above all, for organized crime, until sensation-hungry journalists, confused northern Italian jurists and foreign authors interpreted it as the name of an organization. The emergence of the word was, then, linked with the emergence of a secret society and thus gave rise to fantastic speculations."(3).

He then goes on to add that the "theory which assigns the greatest antiquity to this society suggests that mafia is a corruption of the Arabic word mu afah, in which mu means something like 'inviolability, strength, vigour,' and afah something like "to secure, to protect.' Mu afah had therefore been an association which provided security for its members" (3). Among other possibilities, Hess also cites the Sicilian vespers (1282) and the slogan "Morte alla Francia Italia anela!" which he mistranslates as "Death to France, Italy groans" as opposed to desires. (3).

Yet another improbable source is seen "as an acronym for the slogan 'Mazzini autorizza furti, incendi, avvelenamenti" (Mazzini authorizes theft, arson, poisoning).

"And finally, the mafia was seen as a secret masonic society, said to have been founded by five men in Mazara del Vallo in 1799" (4). "About 1875 the concept off mafia penetrated also into German, French, and English" (4). He cites no sources.

Sourced from http://www.sicilianculture.com/mafia/mafiawords.htm

[Rich46yo]

Funny, the people that cry with outrage when Mexican Police cross the border by mistake think that it is OK to send search and destroy teams into a sovereign country.

Bet your hat has two peaks also.

Boy your analogies are really brilliant. Russia basically created the separatist issue in Georgia and then invaded to crush hopes of Georgian freedom and bring them back into the control of Russia. I dont see the comparisons between that and chasing Terrorists across a mountain region border. But, then again, Im not Canadian.

I predicted all this would happen. I called Pakistan a quasi terrorist supporting state, the fact is elements of Pakistani Intelligance and Military have always had close relations with the Taliban.

If the muslims (by that i gather you mean terrorists) operates within the borders of another sovreing country its thier problem and their _responsobility_. Unless that country asks for help you have no business going there.

Gee you think it complicates things when they cross the border and kill NATO troops?

[Excel1]

respecting the sovereignty of pakistan is not an issue. pakistan is through incompetence or complicity(doesn't matter which) harbouring enemies of the the united states and the rest of the western world in general.

special forces ops and surgical strikes with uav's is fine and dandy for bumping off the odd aq big wig but all that's going to amount to imo is years of prolonged torture and ultimately a loss that even the euros will regret in hindsight.

this sensitive new age of warfare is bs and just keeps the opposition in the game. i have said it here before..screw popularity, carpet bomb the crap out of aq and the taleban's pakistan safe havens. beats me why it hasn't been done yet. paki nukes?  chit happens... most of em are probably duds anyway.

[1pLUs44]

hmm... they seem to have the military to fire on our troops, but not to arrest terrorists... Kinda odd isn't it?

[sluggish]

Huh.  Pakistan can't flush out terrorists that have hunkered down in their country but they are going to find and fire on special forces operations that cross the border?  I don't think so.

The most probable explanation of this announcement is that Paki gubment is attempting to appease its Muslim populace shaking its finger and giving the US a hollow threat.

[Shifty]

We damn sure did when we went to war in Iraq.

Unit names?

Seriously name one unit pulled from Afghanistan and sent to invade Iraq.

[Elfie]

You did, you also dropped bombs on cambodia and caused many civilian casualties. These actions helped the Khmer Rouge gain support in eastern parts of Cambodia.

Its a fine line between chasing terrorists into someone elses sovereign land and becoming a terrorist yourself. Start doing this and you'll see even less support from pakistan and create sympathy for those terrorists you're trying to destroy.

And don't have a big cry if some foreign goverment sanctions similar acts on US terroritory because it doesn't like the US training some 'freedom fighters'. If you can't respect other peoples borders don't expect them to respect yours.

The attacks into Cambodia and Laos were very limited in number and caused such a huge international uproar that they were discontinued. For the most part, the Viet Cong and NVA forces were left alone in their sanctuaries in Cambodia and Laos.

As far as the part in bold.....umm....riiiiiight. 

[CAP1]

Apparently there was a US special forces operation in the tribal lands of Pakistan recently and the Pakistanis are understandably upset.  I guess their military has ordered their troops to fire on any US forces operating within Pakistan territory.

That would be a hell of a thing 

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6VD6wVTmAD937RO2G0

As far as Im concerned the Pakis are harboring terrorists, but what do I know......

i think those firing on our troops may find that to be a fatal mistake.

[skernsk]

I had friends serve in '06 and I have one that is due to rotate out of Afghanistan next week.  Things are not much better there in terms of Talliban than in '06.  The turds are still setting up IED's and lobbing shells at camps and bugging out.  They are like a crow messing with a Pitbull on a chain.  They know just how far the Pitbull can go and they stand outside his reach and tease him.

I think the biggest mistake in Afghanistan is NATO takin over.  Is is a war or isn't it?  I say chase them into every crack and crevice and destroy them in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Canada, USA, Britain, Australia or whereever you need to.  No more fighting with one hand tied behind your back, if Pakistan doesn't like it a few fly overs from B2's outta tell them to shut the F*ck up. 

[Toad]

Careful Skernsk; Torque will come along and brand  you as a Canadian neocon member of the evil empire!

For all the rest of yas... we can go into Pakistan anytime we want. The Obamessiah said so and he is a beloved world leader recently back from a victory tour of Europe. 

[skernsk]

Careful Skernsk; Torque will come along and brand  you as a Canadian neocon member of the evil empire!

LOL!  I've been branded worse than that.  Having seen and heard first hand accounts I am of the belief that if we are commited to being there and having men and women in harms way - those men and women should do whatever it takes to get the job done.  War is ugly, it should not have conditions and rules.  One side (ours) follows certain rules and guidelines while the other (Taliban) does not.  That is a no way to win a war and Vietman taught us that. 

As for Obama or McCain, I would support the president that wants to win at all costs so the conflict will be over much faster.  Let's face it, whichever one wins is adopting 'the Iraq' and Afghanistan from the previous president.  Pulling out is not a good option - so go with the one who has the balls to do what needs to be done.