P47 Discussion

[MjTalon]

Ah the mighty T-bolt... How have your reputation as a Fighter diminished over the years. Countless P47s are shot down due to the overloading of it's wing points and countless times they have become the " oooo P47 low, EZ kill " Stereotypes. Well the P47 is a outstanding Dog fighter, one of the best to be exact because it has many characteristics that is not employed to there greatest ability. Pilots just use the P47 as a workhorse for base porking and hence the reputation of a easy kill p47 was born.

I'm writing to try and change that. The P47 is an amazing fighter plane as well as a outstanding ground attack plane. It's just when you load it to the brim with options you lose value speed and drag deductions that greatly hampers your ability to defend yourself. I'm the CO of the 84th Fighter Squadron/ 78th Fighter Group which is a P47 Squadron and I've been training my guys on how to effectively use the T-bolt along side wingman tactics and working as a team.

Let's go over the P47s Strengths:

• High Speed Maneuverability ( one of the best fighters at high speeds. )
• Diving Ability ( nothing in the game can match a P47 in a 0 G dive. Best Diver in the game. )
• Firepower ( With 8 .50 caliber machine guns with 3200 rounds of ammo and the ability to carry over 3,000LB worth of ordnance with bombs and rockets, the P47 is a steller Ground attack plane, One of the best. )
• Instantaneous Turn Rate ( The P47 is a great turner with speed. And above 300 MPH you can turn with just about any plane in the game for quick snapshot's, deflections, etc.)
• Visibility ( All of the P47s have outstanding cockpit view excluding the D11. Along with superb SA makes a deadly combination with the ability to spot cons first.)
• High Speed Flaps ( The T-bolt has High speed flaps that can pop out a notch of flaps untill 475 ISA. That notch of flaps comes in handy when making high speed snapshots, maneuvering, deflections, etc. )
  

• Durability ( Now this is debatable, but from my experience the T-bolt in AH lives up to the rep for the ability to sustain massive amount of damage. I've personally have survived many encounters shot up, dmg, oil, parts missing, etc and i was able to take her home limping. She can sustain damage, just not for very long in my experience.)
• High Alt Performance ( The P47 is one of the best planes in the game at high altitude. It's performance does not decrease once above 20k, but yet increases. That Supercharger really is a blessing up high while majority of the planes in AH performance rapidly decreases above 20k. So above 20k the P47 reigns supreme in the hands of a skilled pilot.
• Speed ( Speed is somewhat average-above average. The P47 is in the middle of the pack in mid alt engagements but if you're in trouble, a 0 G dive will quickly increase your speed to gain some separation. As long as you spot the con before he becomes a threat, you'll be able to make a egress. Above 20k the P47 is one of the fastest planes at Alt.
• Roll Rate ( Beautiful. The p47 can roll with the best of them and come out on top, along with some rudder input you'll be able to out maneuver alot of planes and catch them by surprise with your quickness. Also helps when in a scissors engagement. )

[BnZ]

• Instantaneous Turn Rate ( The P47 is a great turner with speed. And above 300 MPH you can turn with just about any plane in the game for quick snapshot's, deflections, etc.)

Okay, here is the part I don't understand...

Virtually every fighter in the game turns well enough to black you out above 300 mph IAS. Even the Fw-190s. And even the 109s don't suffer a loss of elevator authority until around 400mph IAS. So let us say you and a 109 are both at 375mph trying to out-turn each other, you turn rate will both be limited by the same thing, black-out, so where is the advantage? The only fleeting advantage I see going to the jug here is that it can dump speed quicker because of higher-wing loading, using flaps and even dive-brakes, but the 109 could mitigate this quite a bit with throttle management. And it is very, very difficult to shoot anything while riding the tunnel.

So at speeds well-above corner, isn't turning ability really a wash? Up until the speeds bleed down to the point that the fighter which can pull a higher rate of turn at lower airspeed starts to have the upper hand?

[trotter]

P-47 gets a bad rep amongst newer players because many of them think only in 2 dimensions. If it can't sustained turn well, they think, it's garbage.

P-47 gets a bad rep amongst some experten because they are masters of the vertical fight. Not cherry picking or BnZ'ing (no offense to the named above) but using climb rate to maintain a perch. The P-47 has a terrible climb rate, and its zoom cannot be used after even modest manuevering.

Those who cherish the P-47 are able to fight downhill (not as easy as it sounds) and have excellent SA. There are simply fewer of these players out there than of the other types. With so few people willing to fight the 47 to its strengths, it gets the reputation of a mediocre fighter.


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To answer BnZ's inquiry above, I don't think Talen meant 375. There is a sweet spot for planes with great high speed turn rates, I believe it is between 325-310, where turns can be made sharply while riding the tunnel. You're right in that at extremely high speeds, instantaneous turn rate is limited by blackouts. But finding that sweet spot, riding it downhill for as long as possible (keeping speed over 250 at minimum) is the key to successful instantaneous turn rate.

[Furball]

I think the prob most people have with the jug is regaining E after you lose it in a turnfight.  Once it is low and slow, it is pretty difficult to get that E back if you are in a hostile area.  If you are out of WEP, you may as well be flying a bomber

Personally, i really enjoy the D-25 and D-11.

[Angus]

Try to do a flat turn while holding 300 mph in a jug,,,,anyone will simply cut your corner.
I failed to see the most important RL factor of the Jug, although hinted at, - 20K+ performance.
You should talk of 30K+ performance instead
And at that alt, or more, the turning-table turns
Watch out for the Spit IX though...at 40K 

[MjTalon]

Not necessarily angus, I never do a flat turn when evading a contact, always add angels to make the shot difficult then snap in the direction of the contact to either saddle or initiate a defensive scissors. The way to survive in a P47 is to always stay above 300 IAS. If you're above that, you won't have no problems maneuvering.

[Stoney]

The way to survive in a P47 is to always stay above 300 IAS. If you're above that, you won't have no problems maneuvering.

Tough to maintain 300 IAS if you're maneuvering for a shot against a Spit, N1K2, Yak, etc.  If you sell out, the P-47 can work around onto almost any plane's 6 o'clock.  The only problem is that once you saw his wing off, you're a complete target, and will stay that way.  My squad originally started using hard decks some time ago, but as everyone would merely dive away from us, we had to change tactics.  IMO, the best way to survive in the MA is for you to go in with wingman.  If you have a 4 ship, let 2 go in and mix it up, with 2 staying above for cover.  If you have a two-ship, keep one up and one down.

Picking your battles is another problem.  If you're outnumbered, but with altitude, all you can hope for is to knife through the blob at high speed and pick up the "low-hanging fruit".  If you try to isolate a single target, you may kill him, but ultimately, its a Phyrric victory, as you'll be pounced.  1v1 or 2v2, have at it.

Jug is my favorite aircraft, but can be a pain to fly in the MA.  It'd be like being an LA-7 fan if everybody wanted to fight at 25,000 feet...

[iTunes]

I like to take  some of the Fighters that are good at 20k+ main Issue though for me is trying to find somebody up there for a good scrap, It's like panning for Gold sometimes, But when you do though it is very rewarding, even If I lose,die or whatever, it's still better than tooling around at 10k then chasing a con to the deck where you get ganged very quickly and your back in the tower.
I do like the 47's though, I'd say the D11 and the D25 are my favourites to date, great fast, up high, or going downhill, i just don't like to try and fight uphill in them though.

[MjTalon]

I see where you're going stogey. As for fighting uphill in a P47, that's where majority of my experience in it lies. The way i learned is to put it into situation that it surely disadvantaged in ( Mulit plane engagements, Low nd slow,  TnB, knife... etc ) I've learned the P47s limits and that allows me to do maneuvers that shocks majority of the planes that i encounter.

I would ultimately like to see the P47s reputation as a easy kill lifted and me and my squadron " The 84th Fighter Squadron/78th figher group " are working hard to change the P47s image.

[Stoney]

Well, it used to be that the 56th Fighter Group used to fly huge fighter sweeps as a group.  This back when there was only one MA, and everyone knew that if you bumped into a huge swarm of Knight P-47's, it was them.  They could easily turn a quiet sector into a bloodbath.

Furthermore, Yucca and Bluekitty et al used to go around shaming folks with the Jug, regardless of aircraft type.  I once personally witnessed Bluekitty take on 3 aircraft simultaneously, and shoot them all down in about 30 seconds (I was one of the victims).  Another fond rememberance is the film of Yucca being chased by a Spit, where Yucca cranks into a hard slip, drops his gear just in time to bounce off the ground, and pops up behind the befuddled, overshooting Spit, and blasts him.  That was an epic maneuver.

But, I digress... 

I have employed the Jug in just about every possible MA scenario--turn fighting Zero's--all of that.  Sometimes you just get lucky, but most of the time, the Jug is either out-performed or out-numbered in the typical MA fight.  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to take it out and dance at 20,000 +, but the reality of the MA is that you can't depend on finding those types of flights.

Good luck regardless...

 

[MjTalon]

I heard about the 56th when they were together. Anyone have any information about them? I'm very interested in reading up about the old 56th and there stories... I know there's plenty!

As far as that, I'm glad to say that the AvA arena with it's new Italy Campaign has allowed the 84th to fly our Crates historically. The D11 has been deployed and fighting 190s, C2s, and 109s are a blast in that historical setting. But as stated above, our goal is to make a name for ourself and to change the "Easy Kill" image of the P47 in the process as a elite P-47 Squadron.

 

[832725]

Only problem bout the P-47 is its Fat.

[iTunes]

Where is Yucca these days Stoney? Don't think I've seen him around in the MA? But your right about the 56th, those guys ruled with the Jug, best dammed group of Jug flyers I ever came accross, they were to Jugs what guys like Corky and Delrium, etc are to the 38.

[Stoney]

Unknown.  I haven't seen him in a very long time.  Platanno's been flying with the Muppets--he may have some information...

[bj229r]

Ya certainly get more kills in typical low MA fights with a spit..niki, etc, but such kills are meaningless compared to JUG KILLS (aside from that, what Stoney said about the wingman thingie )