Adding a crewmember

[AJRimmer]

I am wondering if it would be possible to allow 2 gunners in a singe B-17. 6 gun positions to man is a handful  .

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A.J.Rimmer
Capt. of the B-17 "MilkRun".

[Heater]

Use the .join command

[214CaveJ]

I believe Rimmer is asking about a change the gunner system, allowing 2 gunners onboard instead of just 1.  Been a few times in the past couple of days I'd have liked to have had an extra gunner aboard with me so we could both be on the guns =)

[Downtown]

I put in a some suggestion message.  Earlier tonight I was attacked by 6 Knights.  I got one, and then a pony got 1000 yards to the right and high, and a spit got 1000 yards to the left and high, and a Veltro and F4U were on my six, just a little high. And there was a nick low.

Well the Veltro came in and I tore him up, and then Camel? in the Pony dropped on me and tore me up.

If the Fighters are getting that smart, the bombers need some help.  I can only defend from one angle now.

Last Night I was in a 10 minute fight in a B-17 with a nick and a spit, they got me, but the also attacked from opposite directions.

It is getting hard to buff with the coordinated attacks.

It is hard to fly and fight in a B-17.

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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!

[Minotaur]

   

If the Fighters are getting that smart, the bombers need some help. I can only defend from one angle now.

Here is the way I see it.

The tactics of attacking a B-17 will continue to evolve depending on, and regardless of, how many "Live" gunners are inside.  

The tactics of attacking a B-17 will be dictated by the ability of it to defend itself.  This has nothing to do with the ability of the fighters to attack it.  

The current SA allowed a B-17 is exceptional, by allowing the use of external views.  IMO if more gunners are allowed onboard, then external views must be disabled.

Gunners should be able to move between gun positions not occuppied another gunner, or even the co-pilot postion.

I have to say, some of the more experience B-17 gunners are almost untouchable, when attacked by a single fighter.  The flip side to all of this, is that it is equally frustrating for the fighter plane player.  Percieved that the B-17 has too much of an advantage, as it is now.

From a B-17 stand piont.  I can certainly see how another gunner on board will make an immediate and positive difference in its defence.  I do not believe it will greatly detract from gameplay, nor anyones enjoyment of it.  Multiple gunners, sounds like a good thing.

However, with 1 gunner or 6 gunners on board, fighter tactics will change.  The situation of B-17's getting overwelmed will not change.  

Good Luck!    

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-12-2000).]

[214CaveJ]

I like a challenge on me guns in me 17.  Been plenty times I've taken down one bandit and barely had time to jump to another gun (tail to upper) in time to open up and get the second or third in the string (you've been in one of those chains haven't ya mino? =)

I'm good on my guns, as several can attest.  But sometimes it's just too much.  Like the situation DownTown described.  Then combine that with pilots who spray and pray starting at greater than 800 yds (when I'm in a fighter and bounce a 17 I usually hold til d400, more damage for less trigger time in me experience).

I seem to recall a post (I think from Pyro, not sure anymore) talking about 17s flying in formation to have more defensive cover when this topic came up.  That's all well and good in theory and on paper, but practicle application in an arena dinnae match up well with theory.  It's not all that easy to get a formation together for various reasons.  Then if/when you do, some of the guys on the guns can't shoot (just need practice, I know) and for all intents and purposes ya might as well be on your own.

[Sledriver]

Now add to everything you have just said, the fact that you were about to make your bomb drop. Do you bomb or do you fight. You can't do both. Or how about, your looking into your bombsights, all ready to release your pay load, when all of a sudden the plane rolls over on you.
More gunners are needed.
With a single plane coming in on me, I will drop him 3/4 times. If you have a fighter on the b17's 6 and one on his 12, well kiss that plane goodbye.
Those of us who fly the buff a lot are getting much better at defending her. But there are some angles of attack which are simply undefendable. I know, I've been there.


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Sledriver
(The MAD BOMBER)

[This message has been edited by Sledriver (edited 01-12-2000).]

[Downtown]

I personally prefer a Yo-Yo attack on the B-17 and, I start High six, dive and come up under the belly, that leaves just me and the Ball Turret GUnner.

It my best attack with the highest survival percentage IMHO.

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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!

[214CaveJ]

I love it when someone tries that "rollercoaster move on me DT.  There are 2 points in your flight path where you will "hang" and require very little movement of the guns.  The first is when you start to climb back up and bring your guns to bear.  The second, if ya live that long, is when ya level off to keep your guns on target/bring them back on target.
Or, there's just one, and that's if you climb right under the 17 (haven't seen this one much).  As you come into the vertical (and before your guns are on target) your a sitting duck, and probably are well on the way to having a wing sawed off.

[Minotaur]

I am terrible at attacking B-17's, the only method I know that works almost everytime, is the verticle attack straight on its head.  For the B-26, it is the belly and only because it has no guns there.  Basically make sure that I can see wing shape and markings on the wing, not just a wing line.  

As the song goes "Mino meets the BUFF and the...  BUFF won".  No applause is needed.    

Not withstanding my lack of ability, this is common for many other players as well.  I watch many, many, many fighter attacks on BUFF's.  A good attack is started, the BUFF manuvers, the attack angle is thrown off, porcupine quills, splash fighter.

I am starting to think, the game is maybe a tad out of balance.  Giving the BUFF "TOO MUCH" ability.  Some of the better BUFF drivers are almost invincable.

Three Ideas I have for play balancing BUFF's.

1)  The stand off range of the BUFF is greater than the fighter attack range.  A single BUFF can fight off multiple single fighter attacks with impunity.  One after another, the fighters attack.  The BUFF is damaged, but its ability to defend itself is not.  If it has ammo, it can fight just as well for the first attack, as for the sixth.

I am suggesting that gun positions die as they are hit.  This way, multiple single fighter attacks would actually be of some consequence to the BUFF, other than "Easy Pickins".  

2)  I would like to see the BUFF's external views modified.  IMO having an external view available to BUFF more or less, simulates the SA affored to that of the real plane.  This is a very good thing.  

My suggestion would be to restrict this eternal view.  Instead of the current "Outside View Looking Out", make it an "Inside View Looking Out".  

Place "Stuff" in the way so that the BUFF does not get "The Perfect God's Eye View".

Depending upon the direction looked, only provide the best view, of the position in the plane, that would actually see it.  (This one sounds really difficult to do I realize -  More importantly time consuming)  

Maybe split screens would be an option, consisting of composite plane position views.

3)  Using the external view mode, BUFF's can manuver quite readily to an optimum firing position.  Able to position themselves for "Maximum Firepower on Target".  (Realistically this was not done, but "Hey" this is a game.)

I suggest treating this the same as when a pilot jumps to a gunners postion or simply by locking the controls while the external view mode is being used.  Maybe the god "Zeus" could accomplish this, but the rest of YOU are "Only Human".  (LOL - I am the Minotaur     )

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur and BUFF won this one also   (edited 01-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-16-2000).]

[K-KEN]

Three Ideas I have for play balancing BUFF's.
These are lame....IMO
1)  The stand off range of the BUFF is greater than the fighter attack range.  A single BUFF can fight off multiple single fighter attacks with impunity.  One after another, the fighters attack.  The BUFF is damaged, but its ability to defend itself is not.  If it has ammo, it can fight just as well for the first attack, as for the sixth.

If it has ammo left....is key!  Battle damage takes a toll too.

I am suggesting that gun positions die as they are hit.  This way, multiple single fighter attacks would actually be of some consequence to the BUFF, other than "Easy Pickins".  

I think gun positions are already killed and useless..(as I experienced last evening!) if shot up in attack.

2)  I would like to see the BUFF's external views modified.  IMO having an external view available to BUFF more or less, simulates the SA affored to that of the real plane.  This is a very good thing.  

Not sure what you mean here...(above)

My suggestion would be to restrict this eternal view.  Instead of the current "Outside View Looking Out", make it an "Inside View Looking Out".  

If that is the case....then allow 6 gunners..

Place "Stuff" in the way so that the BUFF does not get "The Perfect God's Eye View".

Isnt the pilot busy enough-if alone without having "Other Stuff" in the way?

Depending upon the direction looked, only provide the best view, of the position in the plane, that would actually see it.  (This one sounds really difficult to do I realize -  More importantly time consuming)  

Maybe split screens would be an option, consisting of composite plane position views.

3)  Using the external view mode, BUFF's can manuver quite readily to an optimum firing position.  Able to position themselves for "Maximum Firepower on Target".  (Realistically this was not done, but "Hey" this is a game.)

I suggest treating this the same as when a pilot jumps to a gunners postion or simply by locking the controls while the external view mode is being used.  Maybe the god "Zeus" could accomplish this, but the rest of YOU are "Only Human".  (LOL - I am the Minotaur     )

[/QUOTE]

The B-17 is a vulnerable plane now......without a gunner.  But is a fortress with one.  I sumbit that these suggestions will diminish it's affectiveness and no one will fly it-unless out of dire need.  The outside views are an advantage......but it is kinda slim.  Try fighting a NIKI or 2.  A couple of passes and you are toast WITH a gunner!
KKEN

[Minotaur]

K-Ken;

Your post was very confusing to me. You quoted alot of my text.  To be polite, I feel compelled give you some sort of a reply.  

Are you trying to flame my comments?  That is the impression that I got.  If so, it was poorly done.  I really have no clue as to the object of your post.  

I did however, extract some ideas from your comments.  These are that you think the concepts presented in my post are "Lame" and that you believe play balance is in favor of the single fighter attacking a single BUFF.  Is this correct?

Good Luck in your multiple gunner efforts!  

Mino

[Pongo]

just some thoughts.
co-e I can usually get a mutual kill on a buff. I dont know if this is accurate.
If I can get decently above a buff (1.5-3 k)
at an altitude where my bird is still usefull
(190 = 25k)
I think that the play balance and historical ballance are right on.
IE If he allows me to get good flank position with enough E to get a good head of steam up he is toast. If he evades with good timing to leave me hanging I will be hurt bad and he will likly be hurt a little.
I dont get too shoot at CaveJ but he is good. Wolf(knight) is definatly a good fight in a buff. He will be high(first rule of buffdom) and he will not allow you to easily get the advantage on him. He also does mean spirited things like slip towards you as you are trying to pull ahead of him or above him..
You have 2 seconds to decide wether to dive away or take your lame attack ...
I think that lots of the defensive capabilities of the buff are neccasary to let the wolfs of the world run successfull solo missions. If they where not there the buffs would not be up..
But I would like some changes..
Maybe the buff guns could be unconverged...
IE let them be coordiated centeraly but throw a dispersion function at the accuracy.
so the gun being aimed is hitting in the pointed place but the other guns are going to hit in places around there but not exactly at the same spot.
Also put a little delay in the engagment of the individual guns as a plane enters their arcs.
Model the gunners as killable pieces of the plane. I dont think that I have ever lost a gun on a buff to anything but ammo expenditure.


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Pongo
Sturm Gruppe