Paulson Plan: Lazs style socialism at its worst

[Mr No Name]

Absolutely NONE of these bailouts should have happened without a VOTE in congress and a signature by the president.  If we are being saddled with the debt, we should have had a voice in it.  From what I understand, much of the AIG debt was foreign!!!  I am as conservative as they get, I think Bush and mccain are both flaming liberals and anyone who supported this bailout needs a kick in the pants.  Even worse, the debt for this is going to be 'off budget'... So now, I suppose we are dealing with like 5 different sets of books now?

This is America, businesses can and should be allowed to fail when they are improperly managed.  Many of these *cant use the word i want to here* should be in jail for their mismanagement, not receiving 40M retirement packages on our dime.  Capitalism works... It is healthy and normal for the economy that people who do business in a shoddy manner fail... Some outright failures would have untangled the web of deceit that many of these banks have operated under.  Paulson should be tarred and feathered or at least jailed... the fed has put the value of our dollar in the toilet and more important - subverted the constitutional principles that caused the very founding of this country... Taxation without equal and fair representation.  He spent trillions of our dollars in a short period of time without so much as one congressional debate or even much of a warning.

I am angry and I do not care where the investigation leads or who gets trampled by getting to the truth - but heads should roll in the streets for this one.

[Toad]

In the end..  it all boils down to the fact that people who could not afford homes were allowed to buy em.. that created an artificial bubble that had to pop sometime.. 

lazs

Like it or not and politics aside, that is the best simple explanation there is and one that everyone can and should understand.

Because all the taxpayers are getting stuck with the bill.  Oh, wait... not ALL of the taxpayers. In fact the very ones that couldn't afford the homes they bought are not going to pay anything. Latest numbers are that the number of "non-payers" has grown to more than 43 million, or one out of every three Americans who file a tax return. Many of these may well get money given to them through the Earned Income Tax Credit.

So rejoice you top 20 percent of taxpayers that pay about 86 percent of all the income taxes; your bill is going up.

So vote Republican or Democrat this time and make sure that you get in on this daisy chain of the two major parties taking turns screwing your poop chute while you obligingly bend over the barrel for them.

Me? Bob Barr/Libertarian all the way. Second election in a row I'm voting Libertarian.

[Toad]

And if you want to quit crying over spilled milk and trying to assign blame to one party or the other, instead of both where it belongs, you might take 5 minutes and read this. Because a giant dildo is headed your way if you pay taxes and it is homing in on your tailpipe.

Guess who is going to benefit from this giganto bailout.... go ahead... guess....

Paulson Bailout Plan a Historic Swindle

Financial-market wise guys, who had been seized with fear, are suddenly drunk with hope. They are rallying explosively because they think they have successfully stampeded Washington into accepting the Wall Street Journal solution to the crisis: dump it all on the taxpayers. That is the meaning of the massive bailout Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has shopped around Congress. It would relieve the major banks and investment firms of their mountainous rotten assets and make the public swallow their losses--many hundreds of billions, maybe much more. What's not to like if you are a financial titan threatened with extinction?

If Wall Street gets away with this, it will represent an historic swindle of the American public--all sugar for the villains, lasting pain and damage for the victims. ......

.....The failed S&Ls held real assets--property, houses, shopping centers--that could be readily resold by the Resolution Trust Corporation at bargain prices. This crisis involves ethereal financial instruments of unknowable value--not just the notorious mortgage securities but various derivative contracts and other esoteric deals that may be virtually worthless.

Despite what the pols in Washington think, the RTC bailout was also a Wall Street scandal. Many of the financial firms that had financed the S&L industry's reckless lending got to buy back the same properties for pennies from the RTC--profiting on the upside, then again on the downside. Guess who picked up the tab? I suspect Wall Street is envisioning a similar bonanza--the chance to harvest new profit from their own fraud and criminal irresponsibility.

They're coming for your money... somebody has to pay for the new boats and airplanes of the thieves that got us into this mees.

Enjoy!

[bustr]

Guys read the full text of the Gram-Leach-Bliley hot Karl act. Its long, vauge and you will miss the parts very easily that setup letting the Federal government as law bail out all these entities. Because of how vauge the language is, they would have to go to the SCOTUS to prove the bail outs are not legal.

[SkyRock]

In the end..  it all boils down to the fact that people who could not afford homes were allowed to buy em.. that created an artificial bubble that had to pop sometime.. 



lazs

Many who purchased the homes could afford them, until gas skyrocketed along with every other item a family needs to live.   

[Toad]

Yah, right. Grab anything you can to cover the facts.

As usual, you just haven't done your homework, teacher. Allow me to help.

Note the date on this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12975777

As rates rise, home foreclosures surge

Thurs., May. 25, 2006

...RealtyTrac, an industry organization that maintains a nationwide database of foreclosures, says mortgage defaults between January and March of this year numbered 323,102 compared with 188,122 during the same period last year — an increase of 72 percent...

Gas prices in '06 were much lower than they are now.



Inflation was ~ 3%

Year CPI - Inflation Rate* 
2008 5.0%
2007 2.8%
2006 3.2%
2005 3.4%
2004 2.7%
2003 2.3%
2002 1.6%
2001 2.8%
2000 3.4%
1999 2.2%


Cliff's Notes version is that the loan foreclosures and devaluation of the banks holdings started long before oil spiked and while inflation was relatively stable and reasonably low.

Nice try though. Laz still has it nailed.

[Nwbie]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/10/us/politics/10fannie.graphic.jpg

[SkyRock]

Yah, right. Grab anything you can to cover the facts.

As usual, you just haven't done your homework, teacher. Allow me to help.

Note the date on this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12975777


Gas prices in '06 were much lower than they are now.

(Image removed from quote.)

Inflation was ~ 3%

Year CPI - Inflation Rate* 
2008 5.0%
2007 2.8%
2006 3.2%
2005 3.4%
2004 2.7%
2003 2.3%
2002 1.6%
2001 2.8%
2000 3.4%
1999 2.2%


Cliff's Notes version is that the loan foreclosures and devaluation of the banks holdings started long before oil spiked and while inflation was relatively stable and reasonably low.

Nice try though. Laz still has it nailed.

September 2003, crude was $25 dollars a barrel, by summer of 2006 it was $75 a barrel.  july of 2008 140+ a barrel.



"The number of new mortgage holders entering foreclosure in the second quarter stood at 1.19 per cent of all US mortgages - the first time the rate has topped 1 per cent in the 29-year-history of the association's record keeping.

The seasonally-adjusted foreclosure rate is up from 0.65 in the second quarter of last year and nearly triple the 0.39-per-cent figure in 2005 - the height of a decade-long housing boom in the US."

So, before gas rose, it was a housing boom, after gas rose, it's been a forclosure boom.

[SkyRock]

As usual, I am going to be extremely rude and talk about you as a professional with great disrespect. Allow me to be a complete arse hat.

Go ahead.

[Toad]

If anyone around here is a complete arse hat, it would be you. You post the purest BS and unsupported rumor and when called on it you either dance away or fall back on insulting people. Your "I was only repeating a rumor, I didn't say it was true" is a fine example of your disingenuity in these political discussions.

From the previous gasoline graph, gas prices bounced between ~ $2.40 and $3.00 from '05 to '07. Figure that as an average of 30 cents increase over the previous few years or ~ $2.60/gallon average price for the period. Note that for the period in question inflation which includes gasoline prices can best be described as low. If those people couldn't pay their mortgages in a period of 3% inflation there never was any hope for them.

2007 2.8%
2006 3.2%
2005 3.4%
2004 2.7%

I think it is obvious that if a 30 cent rise in the price of gas makes it impossible for you to pay your mortgage then you should never have qualified for a mortgage and shouldn't own a home. If that small of an increase makes you unable to pay your mortgage, what happens when the car transmission goes out or you have to buy 4 new tires? Or any of the other unfortunate happenings of daily life occur?

These 0 down/interest only loans were given to people that never did have the ability to repay except in all but a perfect economic situation. It was idiocy and it befits our Idiocracy that the plan was ever allowed to come to fruition.

And now the taxpayers....well, the top 20% that pay 83% of all the taxes.... will have to bail out the Wall Street bastards. That's those rich folks, right? The ones making more than ~ $80k.

That's what happens when you loan money to people that could never possibly pay it back. Just like Laz said.

If 3% annual inflation makes you incapable of paying your mortgage, you should be a renter. It's that simple.

[lazs2]

Look.. the republicans and the democrats reached across the aisle on this one.. they showed a willing spirit to work together to bend us over and rape us.

The democrats wanted their socialist utopia paradise ideals to go forward so they wanted the loan companies to be forced to loan to low income and minorities.. the republicans wanted their lenders to be able to suck in even more money so they wanted them to have even more power to lend to normal people who couldn't afford it.

In the end.. it created a demand that was false and a building spree that was too much..  it created a bunch of sleazy "investors" who survived only so long as the bubble stayed alive and it gave homes to low income and minority folk who had no chance in hell of every making the payments 3 years or less down the road.

No way anything like this could have gotten by the democrats unless if had the low income and minority full blown socialist aspect and no way it coulda got past the republicans if it didn't loosen up lending for their fat cats.

Those of us who know what we can afford and didn't believe the inflated prices are fine.. that would beeee...   99% of us.

skycrock is.. as usual.. full of it but Toad took him apart this time.

lazs

[crockett]

Look.. the republicans and the democrats reached across the aisle on this one.. they showed a willing spirit to work together to bend us over and rape us.

lazs

The the only time they will work together, is when they can equally screw over the American public. See that's why I don't mind having a Congress that does nothing. I see some of you complain that the Democratic Congress is doing nothing, well I'm glad they aren't doing anything. I'd rather they do nothing than actually pass the typical bills that get passed.

In fact the perfect world, it would be one party has the presidency and the other party had the house and senate, thus insuring nothing gets done. While I don't think I could stand another Republican president for another four years, I'd like to see a Democrat president and then see the Republicans take control of the house and senate.

[lazs2]

No crock-it... they should be busting butt working for us by lowering taxes and shrinking government.   Once they have gotten it down to revolutionary size then they can sit around and do nothing.

lazs

[crockett]

No crock-it... they should be busting butt working for us by lowering taxes and shrinking government.   Once they have gotten it down to revolutionary size then they can sit around and do nothing.

lazs

Sorry but neither side is going to do that, so I'd rather them do as little as possible because at least that way they can't screw anything up. Think about it, how often do they ever do anything that's good for you.

[SkyRock]

If anyone around here is a complete arse hat, it would be you. You post the purest BS and unsupported rumor and when called on it you either dance away or fall back on insulting people.

lie #1  Show me a quote of me insulting anyone in the O'club that didn't insult me first.

Your "I was only repeating a rumor, I didn't say it was true" is a fine example of your disingenuity in these political discussions.

Lie #2.  I never said that.


Now, back to the topic.

During the housing boom(as illustrated by your chart), gas was at or around $1.20-$1.60 per gallon.  May of 2007 gas was $3.10 per gallon, an increase of around 100%.

food prices                                                                                              

percent change from                                                                                      %increase
2002 to 2003
    
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. ....176.8 180.5         2.1
Food ............................. ............................. .........................176. 2 180.0         2.2
Food at home ............................. ............................. .............175.6 179.4         2.2
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 198.0 202.8          2.4
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ................... 162.1 169.3         4.4
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................ 168.1 167.9         -.1





Percent change from
2003 to 2004
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. ....180.5 186.6        3.4
Food ............................. ............................. ........................180.0 186.2        3.4
Food at home ............................. ............................. ............179.4 186.2        3.8
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 202.8 206.0         1.6
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ...................169.3 181.7         7.3
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................167.9 180.2         7.3

percent change from
2004 to 2005
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. ...186.6 191.2          2.5
Food ............................. ............................. ........................186.2 190.7          2.4
Food at home ............................. ............................. ............186.2 189.8          1.9
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 206.0 209.0          1.5
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ................... 181.7 184.7         1.7
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................ 180.2 182.4         1.2
Fruits and vegetables ............................. ............................. ... 232.7 241.4        3.7

percent change from
2005 to 2006
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. .... 191.2 195.7        2.4
Food ............................. ............................. .........................190. 7 195.2         2.4
Food at home ............................. ............................. .............189.8 193.1         1.7
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 209.0 212.8           1.8
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ................... 184.7 186.6          1.0
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................ 182.4 181.4          -.5

percent change from
2006 to 2007
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. ....195.7 203.300       3.9
Food ............................. ............................. .........................195. 2 202.916      4.0
Food at home ............................. ............................. .............193.1 201.245      4.2
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 212.8 222.107        4.4
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ................... 186.6 195.616       4.8
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................ 181.4 194.770       7.4

percentage change from
2002 to 2007
Food and beverages ............................. ............................. ....176.8  203.3           13
Food ............................. ............................. .........................176. 2  202.916       13
Food at home ............................. ............................. .............175.6 201.245        12
Cereals and bakery products ............................. .................... 198.0  222.107        12
Meats, poultry, fish, and eggs ............................. ................... 162.1  195.616       16
Dairy and related products ............................. ........................ 168.1  194.770       13

Gas up 100% and food up 13%, people spend 17% of their income on these two items.  I believe that this increase put many, not all, but many people into forclosure.
"The gas price spike popped the housing bubble," according to a new report from the group CEOs for Cities, which adds, "Growth in housing prices was fueled by low and stable gas prices from 1990 through 2004."



In fairness, it is only right to state that this was in conjunction with several causes, one large part being people given loans that would stretch them to be able to pay back.  So, why was it that this type of "obviously" stupid practice was able to flourish?
 I am partial to this explanation though.......
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl56220.swf&video_id=Gl27UziYXjE&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i4.ytimg.com/vi/Gl27UziYXjE/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskKXAuMnX2v4VSmgz28k8CN0&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=en