CV Ack Lethality

[BlauK]

I have nothing against the CV AAA lethality, but it is far too accurate. Someone wrote that AAA ammunition does not travel at all from the CV, it just appears at the target. IRL your could make hard evasives and the AAA gunners would have to guess where you are flying. Now this guessing does not happen since ammo travel time is zero  

E.g. Rudel wrote how AAA would explode behind his ju-87 when he was diving fast at target. It takes time to set the fuses, load and fire.

Could we have this delay modelled someway?


------------------

[popeye]

 http://www.ropescourse.org/TBF.jpg

Look familiar?    

[Specterx]

 

I have nothing against the CV AAA lethality, but it is far too accurate. Someone wrote that AAA ammunition does not travel at all from the CV, it just appears at the target. IRL your could make hard evasives and the AAA gunners would have to guess where you are flying. Now this guessing does not happen since ammo travel time is zero

Ever seen the tracers going towards your plane? Ammo travel time is not zero. If you're referring to the 5" weapons, you can actually see the shells leave the gun - again ammo travel time is not zero, if someone hits you it's because the gunner leads their shots.

 

E.g. Rudel wrote how AAA would explode behind his ju-87 when he was diving fast at target. It takes time to set the fuses, load and fire.

Could we have this delay modelled someway?

The type of ammunition used in AH is proximity fused. This means that it has a tiny radar transmitter that automatically detonates the shell when it gets within a certain range of an object. The loading delay (i.e. the time it takes to insert a shell in the breech) is also modelled, if you'll notice.

[Jigster]

It takes between 2 and 5 seconds, when firing manually from the 5 inch guns, to hit anything past 2.5k. It takes between 5-10 seconds for a shot to explode/hit from 3.5k to 6k.

So yer telling me the radar guided 5 inch guns are also telepathic?

There's really no way they could track you at all if doing anykind of manuverability -- they'd have to be phsychicly leading you by about 7 or so seconds when out of icon range of the fleet in order to hit. Now figure how far a fighter moving at 250mph+ can move in that amount of time...

 

------------------
Neeeeeigh.
 -- Bessy
   
Fire from the bowels, Nomads own the latrines
 www.33rd.org

[TheWobble]

You must have rocks in your head to think that a gun or guns on a pitching deck of a moving boat firing at a fighter who is over 5 miles away flying at over 250mph and is jinking and diving and even getting near it much less killing it.  just the mear factor of shell travel would make that impossible. much less all that other crap.

[Specterx]

I was referring to 5" weapons controlled by the players, which are the only ones that we can measure in terms of shell travel time, etc.

For those who still desire an explanation, this is probably what happens: for every puff we see, there are 4-6 additional shells that fly past us but are too far away to detonate. There is thus always a "box" of fire and shells flying past us out to several hundred yards away, it simply looks the way it does because only the shells which pass close enough to the aircraft explode.

The reality is nobody here has actually experienced an AAA barrage from a WWII-era US fleet, so we can't make judgements about the accuracy of weapons unless it is obviously unrealistic, a 100% hit rate or something like that.

I suggest you guys take a look at films of US flak batteries shooting down V1's. Those are many miles away from the batteries and going at about 400mph. Both AH guns and the batteries in the films are on stable platforms (yes, ships pitch and roll in RL, but not in AH). Look how quickly the targets are destroyed.  



[This message has been edited by Specterx (edited 02-10-2001).]

[StSanta]

With regards to dmage on wing etc being abstract - it ain't.

You either have the wing, or you don't. Your aileron either works, or it ain't there.

Look at the discrepancies between aircaft types. The 109G10 is almost impossible to safely fly with a wingtip missing -  ALWAYS. The 190 is easy to safely set down -  ALWAYS.

You don't lose 35% of an aileron; ya lose it all. The damage model, as far as I have experienced, is set up in a binary way when it comes to this.

And, my g10 was outrun by a wingtipless F4U. I initially gained on him, to about d900 from d1.5, but after that he dived a bit, levelled , speed difference wwas equalized and then he just pulled away. Lost wingtip means less drag without any really negative sides it seems.

FWIW; I think AH has a very good damage and FM. These are minor issues that I'm sure HTC is aware of and will be addressing when they have the time.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"

[Toad]

   

Not taking a position on this. Here's an "after action" report on the 345th BG attacking shipping around New Hanover and Western New Ireland in the Pacific. Enjoy.

From "Warpath Across The Pacific" by Lawrence Hickey

A Shipping Finale: February 21, 1944

The successful attacks against shipping around New Hanover and Western New Ireland were brought to a close on the 21st when a large attack force was launched against two Japanese light cruisers reported off the northwest coast of New Hanover. Shortly after take-off, the objective was changed to a convoy in the same area. Both the 38th and the 345th Bomb Groups set out on the mission, but bad weather turned back the fighter cover and all but 15 strafers from the 500th and the 501st Squadrons.

Searching through the mist and rain off the northwest coast of the island, eight of the planes found an opening in the weather and sighted a small convoy consisting of two freighters and three escort vessels. The 500th Squadron, flying in pairs, made a wide circle to the left and 1/Lts. William A. James and George C. Marshall roared in first, attacking a patrol craft and what appeared to be a destroyer.

Next came 1Lts. George Davis and Richard B. Fritzshall. They singled out a patrol craft for attack, and one of their bombs caused an explosion and fire aboard the vessel. Immediately after passing the target, Lt. Fritzshall turned to the right, passing below Davis to attack the destroyer. Davis continued straight ahead into the flash of the forward deck gun of the 3871 ton Kokai Maru, strafing all the way in. Two of his bombs exploded on or near the ship and two others threw up large geysers as they exploded in the water nearby. Flames and dense black smoke began pouring from the ship.

Davis then saw Lt. James attacking one of the escorts and followed him in strafing to cover the B-25 as it pulled away from its target. As he passed over the gunboat, Davis heard the sound of its machine guns blazing away at him. A shell penetrated the bottom of the cockpit and shattered against the radio equipment, peppering 2/Lt. Clifford H. Blake, the co-pilot, with fragments of hot metal. Although Blake was not seriously injured, the shells knocked out all of the cockpit instruments and put large holes through the right wing and rudder. Davis pulled BUGGER OFF out of the fight and waited to join up with the other planes for the return flight home..

After hitting the patrol craft with one of his bombs, Mitchell had swung around to attack the Kowa Maru which directed a steady stream of fire at him as he attacked. Two bombs skipped into the ship and exploded, spreading flames along the entire superstructure. The ship was finished off by 1/Lt John M. Kirmil of the 501st who dropped two 1000 pounders on it, scoring a direct hit. A terrific explosion followed and the ship was last seen listing an aflame from bow to stern.

Another 501st pilot, 1/Lt. Charles E. Coffman, went after one of the escorts and watched Jap seaman jump overboard as his tracers splattered the decks. His bombs were near misses, buckling the hull and lifting the submarine chaser in the water. Although damaged, it escaped. The B-25’s continued orbiting over the scene,  bombing and strafing the burning an sinking vessels for several minutes. Intelligence later confirmed that only the largest escort, probably the subchaser seen below rather than a destroyer, escaped destruction.

Lt. Davis Ditches

The strafers did not escape unscathed. Three of the 501st planes flew home with damage from the vicious AA fire, while five planes from the 500th limped back towards base. Lts. James and Mitchell both turned out of a three-plane formation and landed at Finschafen with major battle damage. Davis, however, figured he could land without instruments just as easily at Dobodura and headed south alone across the Huon Gulf.

Minutes later, the left engine backfired several times and stopped. The propeller went to a flat pitch and ran away; the entire aircraft began to shake. Davis pressed the feathering button several times but nothing happened. From 700 feet the plane began a slow descent towards the sea."

 <they were picked up the next day by a launch from the H.M.A.S. Paluma.>




[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-10-2001).]

[TheWobble]

"look at films of US flak batteries shooting down V1's"

V1 flew straight, and at a rather constant speed,  cannot compare it to a manuevering fighter that is changing direction every second or 2.

[prz]

ah yes, did anybody mention that CV is _ridiculously_ accurate, just logged off pissed after beinjg hit @ 18K by a fleet that was barely visible manuevering and diving in a Spit

[gatt]

I always try to avoid the silly laser-telepathic CV ack-ack like I usually try to avoid silly Nikis. Some days ago, 2-3 country mates were over the CV group and the ack-ack followed only me, 5+ miles away, at 18K and diving at 400mph. There are always silly things in games  

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-12-2001).]

[TheWobble]

hehe, ya dont like carrier ack? fly some H2H, for some reason since the last patch 1 round of 303 brit will reset a whole cv group yup thats right, 1 bullet, so we cant even use the CV's any more, or torps for that matter.. heck H2H is basically 104 with all the problems 105 brought and none of the benifits.  CHEERS!

EDIT: OH and btw, dont get too addicted to whatever H2H game yer playin, becasue 105 brought this nice little "feature" that decides that everytime somebody joins a game that the hosts computer should totally lock up for a while, eventually someone will come in and the host will lock up forever forcing them to reboot and ending the game!  I love it!! it takes over the awsome burden of deciding when you should stop playing off your shoulders!, it just politley freezes yer whole damn computer.   EXCELLENT!

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-12-2001).]

[BlauK]

 

Originally posted by Specterx:
I was referring to 5" weapons controlled by the players, which are the only ones that we can measure in terms of shell travel time, etc.

----------------------------------

And I was referring to the AI controlled AAA.. this so called "telepathic laser guided system".

I was recently chasing a lanc at 18k alt above A17 (ours) while two CVs were camping at some distance on its western side. I hardly saw the CVs, still they hunted me with deadly accuracy and predicted my every move and evasion.

For these AI fired shells there seems to be no travel time. They simply appear out of thin air.

[TheWobble]

"For these AI fired shells there seems to be no travel time. They simply appear out of thin air."


That is EXACTLY what they really do, nothing actually fires them, they just appear.