Author Topic: High speed turning  (Read 1303 times)

Offline SgtPappy

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High speed turning
« on: September 28, 2008, 10:23:16 PM »
I had a discussion about Spitfires vs Mustangs with a friend recently and we were discussing about the fact that, even though the Spitfire was renowned for its turning, the Mustang could outturn the Spitfire under certain circumstances. One of those circumstances being high speed. He asked me why and I couldn't really say. So the question is...

What is the reason as to why higher wing-loaded aircraft have better turn rates than lighter wing-loaded planes?

First I thought it was because the heavier-wingloaded planes are generally heavier and maintain more speed at the same given AoA allowing for a better turn rate. However, if that is so, the lighter plane would burn off its speed quickly enough to gain a turn rate advantage via AoA rather than speed. Hypothesis #2 states that the heavier wing-loaded planes burn off speed faster since they burn off more speed for the same given AoA, thereby tightening the turn radius.

Has me flustered, Ladies and Gentlemen.
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Offline GhostBer

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 10:33:40 PM »
Well, Here is what i know and you can take this for what it worth.  i fly RC aircraft and i know that a lighter wing loading plane will turn tighter than a heavy wing loaded airplane at slow to normal speed. but at high speed the high wing loaded plane will out turn the lighter because of the lift the heavy is creating at higher speeds.

you see the Stang generates a lot more lift at higher speeds than say a spit.  So, When you turn the plane and yank on the stick, essentially,  your "Climbing" horizantally.  Since the 51 can generate more lift at higher speeds you get a tighter turn.  I am sure that some aeronautical engineer will come on here and dispute this but....This is my story and im sticking to it :lol :lol

Even the F4U will turn tighter at higher speeds for the same reason.  It also has a lot to do with the shape of the wing itself. The 51 had a laminar flow airfoil that was thick while the spit had a normal airfoil and a thinner wing. With the thicker wing you can take tighter turns at higher speeds because they do not "flex" as much thus giving you better stability at higher speeds allowing the wing to do its job......Generate lift.

Offline crazyivan

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 11:16:45 PM »
Good  post guys. I actually read this one   :aok
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Offline uptown

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 04:21:44 AM »
the pony can deploy a notch of flaps at high speeds and spits can't ?
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Offline SD67

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 04:38:52 AM »
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Offline Chemdawg

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2008, 06:02:42 AM »
I would have to agree with GhostBer. Makes sense. BTW this is a great post! :rock

Offline GhostBer

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 06:12:18 AM »
the pony can deploy a notch of flaps at high speeds and spits can't ?

I believe the pony can deploy 1 notch of flaps up to 175....The spit cannot agina i think it is due tot he shape of the wing.  Can you imagine if the spitty were able to deploy flaps at higher speeds??  We would ALL be flying spits and turning on a dime!


Offline SD67

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2008, 06:48:48 AM »
A spits flaps deploy at 100% It would physically be impossible to deploy 100% of flap anywhere even close to 200Kts.
If you could deploy fractions of flap like most other aircraft then maybe, but still above 200Kts it's a risky proposition.
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Offline Allen Rune

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2008, 07:15:38 AM »
I believe the pony can deploy 1 notch of flaps up to 175

Actually the 51 can deploy its flaps at 400mph.
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Offline uptown

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2008, 07:21:24 AM »
Actually the 51 can deploy its flaps at 400mph.

yep :aok
Lighten up Francis

Offline save

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 07:38:17 AM »
RL 109s could deploy 10% flaps up to 700kph
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Offline uptown

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 08:09:05 AM »
wow, i didn't know that. maybe one day i'll fly one of those 109s .....a captured one that is  :D
Lighten up Francis

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 09:01:26 AM »
The wikipedia article uses roll rate as an example of high speed maneuverability, but here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility#Aeronautical_dynamics

Quote
Compressibility is an important factor in aerodynamics. At low speeds, the compressibility of air is not significant in relation to aircraft design, but as the airflow nears and exceeds the speed of sound, a host of new aerodynamic effects become important in the design of aircraft. These effects, often several of them at a time, made it very difficult for World War II era aircraft to reach speeds much beyond 800 km/h (500 mph).

Some of the minor effects include changes to the airflow that lead to problems in control. For instance, the P-38 Lightning with its thick high-lift wing had a particular problem in high-speed dives that led to a nose-down condition. Pilots would enter dives, and then find that they could no longer control the plane, which continued to nose over until it crashed. Adding a "dive flap" beneath the wing altered the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift. This fixed the problem.[4]

A similar problem affected some models of the Supermarine Spitfire. At high speeds the ailerons could apply more torque than the Spitfire's thin wings could handle, and the entire wing would twist in the opposite direction. This meant that the plane would roll in the direction opposite to that which the pilot intended, and led to a number of accidents. Earlier models weren't fast enough for this to be a problem, and so it wasn't noticed until later model Spitfires like the Mk.IX started to appear. This was mitigated by adding considerable torsional rigidity to the wings, and was wholly cured when the Mk.XIV was introduced.

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Mitsubishi Zero had the exact opposite problem in which the controls became ineffective. At higher speeds the pilot simply couldn't move the controls because there was too much airflow over the control surfaces. The planes would become difficult to maneuver, and at high enough speeds aircraft without this problem could out-turn them.

I don't think the answer has anything to do with wingloading because an aircraft with low wingloading generates more lift than one with high wingloading at any speed.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 09:05:52 AM by Anaxogoras »
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Offline GhostBer

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 10:37:27 AM »
Compressibility is an important factor in aerodynamics. At low speeds, the compressibility of air is not significant in relation to aircraft design, but as the airflow nears and exceeds the speed of sound, a host of new aerodynamic effects become important in the design of aircraft. These effects, often several of them at a time, made it very difficult for World War II era aircraft to reach speeds much beyond 800 km/h (500 mph).

This is true but i don't think this effects the turning ability of a particular aircraft.


Some of the minor effects include changes to the airflow that lead to problems in control. For instance, the P-38 Lightning with its thick high-lift wing had a particular problem in high-speed dives that led to a nose-down condition. Pilots would enter dives, and then find that they could no longer control the plane, which continued to nose over until it crashed. Adding a "dive flap" beneath the wing altered the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift. This fixed the problem.


While the P38 has a huge issue with compressability it had nothing to do with the shape of the wings or the wings themselves.  It was due, In a small part to the actual design of the airplane, and the small size of the control surfaces.  Once the airflow exceeded a certain speed the control surfaces were ineffectual due to the fact that they couldn't divert enough of the air to change the attitude of the airplane. Yes...This was fixed by the dive brake but only because it slowed the aircraft down enough to allow the small control surfaces to do the job. 


A similar problem affected some models of the Supermarine Spitfire. At high speeds the ailerons could apply more torque than the Spitfire's thin wings could handle, and the entire wing would twist in the opposite direction. This meant that the plane would roll in the direction opposite to that which the pilot intended, and led to a number of accidents. Earlier models weren't fast enough for this to be a problem, and so it wasn't noticed until later model Spitfires like the Mk.IX started to appear. This was mitigated by adding considerable torsional rigidity to the wings, and was wholly cured when the Mk.XIV was introduced.


WOW!  I didnt even know about this one.  If that is the case then what i said in my previous post holds true.  This also means that the Spit MK XIV should be the best turning airplane in the game..Spit pilots??  Anything to add??


I don't think the answer has anything to do with wingloading because an aircraft with low wingloading generates more lift than one with high wingloading at any speed.


Actually Anaxogoras, The light wing loading airplane will generate more lift at slower speeds than a heavier wing loading airplane.  Usually lighter wingloading airplanes have an airfoil that is either semi symetrical or a flat bottomed.  If you look at say.... a Cessna, the wing has more curve over the topof the wing than the bottom. This allows good slow speed stability and more lift.....But it cuts down on the areobatic ability of the airfoil because at higher speeds it generates less lift and the flat bottom airfoil is inherantly stable in slower speeds and doesnt really allow for radical or dynamic manuvers.

Offline hitech

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Re: High speed turning
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2008, 10:39:41 AM »
Ok Gentlemen, I see much confusion.

"the Mustang could out turn the Spitfire under certain circumstances"

This statement must be more clearly defined.

First we must define what the word TURN means.

The word TURN typically is used for 2 types of things.

1. Instantaneous turn. This is simply based on 2 things
    A. Stall Speed. (In general relates to wing loading but wing loading is only a quick approximation, Max LCO must also be considered) Lower stall speed the plane also turns faster.
    B. Max G Limitations. This is either based on pilot or plane. (You can not exceed either in a turn, or your brake the airplane, or G lock the pilot).

2. Sustained turn. I.E. Max Degrees per second that can be done with out loosing speed.
    This depends on wing loading, drag, thrust and can change for each plane at different speeds.

I do not know the numbers of the top of my head for all the spits and the stang, but it could be possible for a stang to have a better sustained turn, with a worse instantaneous turn than the spit.

HiTech