Gun recoil for Schlowy

[Karnak]

Schlowy,

It is quite easy to see recoil in the flight model without playing with the brakes on the ground.

Take an aircraft up, preferably one with heavy guns such as the Me262, Bf110G-2, Fw190A-8, Mosquito Mk VI, Typhoon Mk Ib, Tempest Mk V or Il-2.  I recommend the Me262 as the low thrust of early jets combined with its very heavy firepower make it a great testbed.

Climb up to about 10,000ft in your chosen aircraft.

Dive to 2,000ft and then level off at full throttle.

Enable auto-level and bring up the E6B panel.

Once the aircraft has decelerated to its max sustained speed where thrust equals drag, fire all the guns while watching the E6B readout.

Results:
The recoil from the guns (essentially thrust going the opposite direction of the thrust from the engines) immediately reduces the speed of the aircraft.   With enough ammo you could find the point where the excess thrust from the engine(s) can match both the drag of the air and the reverse thrust of the guns.  Below that speed the aircraft would continue to accelerate even when firing, though acceleration would be slower.

Personally, I have been knocked into a stall while firing in a slow climb in AH.  That was in a Spitfire Mk XIV, not a German aircraft, FYI.

[hitech]

Schlowy: I could explain your questions but with out some basic understanding of physics it will be difficult for you to understand, but if you wish to understand please search this board for past explanations of how acceleration and climb rate are really just different units of measurement. Or how instantaneous turn is just a different unit for stall speed.

Or do you think the 190 should out climb most things?

I also see in your writing the "Great Luftwaffe Conspiracy is alive and well"

As far as your post previously , I never heard of you until today in this thread. There are many people on this bbs who can explain all the fact to you, but just as with your not wanting to believe the gun recoil was modeled (and it always has been and is accurate) you are already predisposed to "Knowing you are correct"  and hence do not wish to have your question answered, you only wish to grasp at straws to prove your LW planes should be better.

HiTech

[Shane]

Schlowy: you only wish to grasp at straws to prove you LW planes should be better.

HiTech

oooooo snap!     

[LYNX]

Thirded
 

[Bronk]

Schlowy: I could explain your questions but with out some basic understanding of physics it will be difficult for you to understand, but if you wish to understand please search this board for past explanations of how acceleration and climb rate are really just different units of measurement. Or how instantaneous turn is just a different unit for stall speed.

Or do you think the 190 should out climb most things?

I also see in your writing the "Great Luftwaffe Conspiracy is alive and well"

As far as your post previously , I never heard of you until today in this thread. There are many people on this bbs who can explain all the fact to you, but just as with your not wanting to believe the gun recoil was modeled (and it always has been and is accurate) you are already predisposed to "Knowing you are correct"  and hence do not wish to have your question answered, you only wish to grasp at straws to prove your LW planes should be better.

HiTech

Visualization

[Murdr]

AckAck, let me hear you say it then.... come on, you can do it...
Say "Air Warrior III modeling was completely fantasy"
You practically did anyways...
Assuming you did, then the same thing could be said about here! (in 12 years!)
I think that you are confusing 'game modeling' and 'game engine'... or are you saying both were fantasy?
You sound like a kid anyways, 'my game is realistic, your game isn't'...

AKAK played AW years longer than you did.  I played AW years longer than you did.  So did Shane for that matter.  The physics model in AH has like 5 times the points of force that AW did.  The physics fiedelity is much better.  Computing power to run a flight model is exponentially more powerful than it was 21 years ago when AW was launched.  Not until 2001 did AW begin release (for testing) updates to the flight model physics that had already been implemented in WB for years.  It's not unreasonable to conclude a third generation game (AH) would be much improved over a first generation game (AW).

[Ack-Ack]

-------------------------------------------------------------
AckAck, let me hear you say it then.... come on, you can do it...
Say "Air Warrior III modeling was completely fantasy"
You practically did anyways...
Assuming you did, then the same thing could be said about here! (in 12 years!)
I think that you are confusing 'game modeling' and 'game engine'... or are you saying both were fantasy?
You sound like a kid anyways, 'my game is realistic, your game isn't'...

Yes, AW DOS, AW4W, AW2, AW3, AWMV modeling, while not quite arcade like, was pretty close to it.  Again, my example of the P-38J being modeled with speed breaks instead of a dive flap is a pretty good indicator the game didn't model planes very realistically.  AH's flight model is leaps and bounds far more realistic than AW ever had.

No, I'm not confusing 'game modeling, game engine or flight model as I'm specifically talking about the flight models.  However, it does appear that you're confused as to what flight modeling is (hint: I'm not talking about a Revelle kit).

As Murdr mentioned, I played AW far longer than you did and have been playing online flight sims also a lot longer than you and it isn't a case of 'my game is more realistic than yours', just a case of me having more experience than you do. 

----------------------------------------------

Hitech, do you think I called you a drunk or a retard? I've said some things in the past, old acct even more, 'AddinkshighII' for example... so sorry, thought I was getting a 2nd chance here! Probation expired!

Hitech, I couldn't understand a sentence you typed... go calm down, sober up, and come back in a few hours! 

So, Hitech, just kidding, I'll assume your not upset, not drunk, and not retarded, etc, etc, etc...

I hope you enjoy your soon to be PNG status.

Posters like AckAck are a reason why your message bords are disfunctional and seemingly not a place for serious discussion. Posters just like him are what led to me disrespecting this place and getting banned from the boards last time anyways.  He has 9000+ posts like the falitical post above... shame on you Hitech!

There is only one person that has been unable to hold a serious discussion in this thread and it's been you.  I don't know if it's due to some mental defect or just a case of you forgetting to take your daily Lithium dosage.  Anyone that claims the U.K. purposely had a restored Bf 109 crash to preserve the 'legend' of the Spitfire and for national pride and security is utterly incapable of having a serious discussion. 

He calls me a loon... look at his Icon

I really don't see how my forum icon has any bearing in this discussion but then I really don't understand the thought process of someone that is obviously 3 bricks short of a full load.

There is nothing more I can really say after the total and complete smack down HiTech brought down on you.


ack-ack

 

[Schlowy]

Murdr, I'll say to this, 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' and you have p38 for an icon!
If it wasn't for Ack's falitcial crap, and name calling,  and glock89's excessive smileys... I'd almost think there was a chance... maybe there is, best discussion I've seen yet was the amo one 151 vs mk2, you posted big in there.
Just the same, me's guess is probly no chance!
Weak amo or not, given the chance, I'll blast yer Ally arse's p38 outa the sky! 

 
Added: you just said 'first generation' (AW) it was AW2's book and AW3's game, proven bias!


Shane, shaddup before I post me film of flashing your plane from nose to tailk, with your cockpit side up, in the AvA arena!   
Luff was better! Benz and Bmw, Porsche, still are, since when were they not? Prewar and since!

Hitech
I do have science background, degrees even!
I'll demonstrate, 2x2 = 4? hmm, or is it 2+2 = 4?  kidding!
Units, conversions, equations, yep yep...
Really I do... I'm not God, but I am 'edukated.' I'm at the stage where I need sources!
************************************************

That being said, bias or sources is my question.

************************************************
Not all sources agree!
"Intellectual property" is the answer I was given! NO SOURCES! Which are you using? I'm sure you've got flight handbooks and stuff the fliers here would love to see... but you are worried about the competition? I think its wrong outlook! Its your company though, so you do stuff your way!
I can see why 'game' too, 30mins of fun after work vs what Boyington said "hours and hours of boredom sprinkled with a few moments of sheer terror" wouldn't be a very good game.

PLEASE make the offline game more 'user-friendly'...
How bad can 'user friendly' hurt?  Instead we get suspicion leading to anger to hate, that stuff yoda said!

We don't have time to climb to 30k! Slew button!
I wish I could slew, push a key and me alt increases till I push it again. MS flightsim does it.
Get to 30k, test 190 speed vs a books stuff, (yep theres fuel weight issues too vs the books... sigh)
Stuka bombing practice from instant 14k would be nice too, instead of only missing all the time! 1001 hours per climb to 14k per bombing run? This sounds like Boyingtons stuff, hours of boredom.

Weight scale in the hangar would make things alot less 'gamey!' from going to runway, exit to flight hangar, back and forth. I've finally heard of the E6B.

User friendly and AckAck's icon with a cork in it and maybe, just maybe... many more customers!
Thankyou for your time sir!

[Bronk]

PLEASE make the offline game more 'user-friendly'...
How bad can 'user friendly' hurt?  Instead we get suspicion leading to anger to hate, that stuff yoda said!

We don't have time to climb to 30k! Slew button!
I wish I could slew, push a key and me alt increases till I push it again. MS flightsim does it.
Get to 30k, test 190 speed vs a books stuff, (yep theres fuel weight issues too vs the books... sigh)
Stuka bombing practice from instant 14k would be nice too, instead of only missing all the time! 1001 hours per climb to 14k per bombing run? This sounds like Boyingtons stuff, hours of boredom.

Yup extremely hard to load the TA map and go to the dive bombing range or the high alt bases for high alt testing..  Damn you HT for not holding schlowy's hand.

[Ack-Ack]

Weak amo or not, given the chance, I'll blast yer Ally arse's p38 outa the sky! 

LOL!  Sure you can.

Added: you just said 'first generation' (AW) it was AW2's book and AW3's game, proven bias!

How does that show any bias?  Using AW and Sybil's book (which by the way is a basic re-write of How to Fly and Fight in Air Warrior, written by Brooke with contributions from some of the best sticks in Air Warrior) to show any flaws on AH's flight model is flawed in itself.  As Murdr pointed out, Air Warrior was basically a first generation online flight sim (this includes AW2 and AW3, the flight models were the same as AW, the only improvement was in the graphics) and the flight model had some real glaring issues, some of which have already been mentioned.

If you have any official data to prove your point that there is something wrong with the flight models of any game, HiTech is willing to make any changes if it is shown the current flight model is incorrect. 

So, where is the proof? 


ack-ack

[LYNX]

"we get suspicion"

[glock89]

Murdr, I'll say to this, 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' and you have p38 for an icon!
If it wasn't for Ack's falitcial crap, and name calling,  and glock89's excessive smileys... I'd almost think there was a chance... maybe there is, best discussion I've seen yet was the amo one 151 vs mk2, you posted big in there.
Just the same, me's guess is probly no chance!
Weak amo or not, given the chance, I'll blast yer Ally arse's p38 outa the sky! 

 
Added: you just said 'first generation' (AW) it was AW2's book and AW3's game, proven bias!


Shane, shaddup before I post me film of flashing your plane from nose to tailk, with your cockpit side up, in the AvA arena!   
Luff was better! Benz and Bmw, Porsche, still are, since when were they not? Prewar and since!

Hitech
I do have science background, degrees even!
I'll demonstrate, 2x2 = 4? hmm, or is it 2+2 = 4?  kidding!
Units, conversions, equations, yep yep...
Really I do... I'm not God, but I am 'edukated.' I'm at the stage where I need sources!
************************************************************************************************
Not all sources agree!
"Intellectual property" is the answer I was given! NO SOURCES! Which are you using? I'm sure you've got flight handbooks and stuff the fliers here would love to see... but you are worried about the competition? I think its wrong outlook! Its your company though, so you do stuff your way!
I can see why 'game' too, 30mins of fun after work vs what Boyington said "hours and hours of boredom sprinkled with a few moments of sheer terror" wouldn't be a very good game.

PLEASE make the offline game more 'user-friendly'...
How bad can 'user friendly' hurt?  Instead we get suspicion leading to anger to hate, that stuff yoda said!

We don't have time to climb to 30k! Slew button!
I wish I could slew, push a key and me alt increases till I push it again. MS flightsim does it.
Get to 30k, test 190 speed vs a books stuff, (yep theres fuel weight issues too vs the books... sigh)
Stuka bombing practice from instant 14k would be nice too, instead of only missing all the time! 1001 hours per climb to 14k per bombing run? This sounds like Boyingtons stuff, hours of boredom.

Weight scale in the hangar would make things alot less 'gamey!' from going to runway, exit to flight hangar, back and forth. I've finally heard of the E6B.

User friendly and AckAck's icon with a cork in it and maybe, just maybe... many more customers!
Thankyou for your time sir!

I love how you blame this on me.

[Murdr]

Added: you just said 'first generation' (AW) it was AW2's book and AW3's game, proven bias!

I played AW4W, AW2, AW3D, and AWMV.  The graphics engine had been updated and plane models had been added over those years, but the basic flight model had not been updated until the "torch" release of AWMV where the "ultra realism" flight model was introduced.  Even at that point it was only run in one test arena, and had some glaring flaws when it came to the drag model.  However the ultra realism was intended to be the future of the AW flight model as a work in progress.

AW was the very first graphicly based MMOL game.  It was first generation.  In 2001 when EA discontinued it, it was under way for a code re-write from scratch.  The core game engine had be patched and patched and re-patched over many years and versions, and could not progress further without doing this.  It was in fact still first generation.  While at the same time the AW player who I understand was intrumental in AW having a film system, who had gone off and developed Warbirds with lessons learned from the AW experienced, had already developed AH with lessons learned from WB and AH.

AW launched in 87.  WB in what, 97ish?  AH in 99?  The fact is that AW was a first generation game, and did not progress with the flight modeling of its contemporaries, so it is a factual assessment to refer to it as a first generation game in this genre.

By the way, AKAK was a tech in AW, and I was a CM and trainer in AW, so it would be in error to assume either of us somehow had less of a commitment and enjoyment of that game than you did.

PLEASE make the offline game more 'user-friendly'...
How bad can 'user friendly' hurt?  Instead we get suspicion leading to anger to hate, that stuff yoda said!

We don't have time to climb to 30k! Slew button!
I wish I could slew, push a key and me alt increases till I push it again. MS flightsim does it.
Get to 30k, test 190 speed vs a books stuff, (yep theres fuel weight issues too vs the books... sigh)
Stuka bombing practice from instant 14k would be nice too, instead of only missing all the time! 1001 hours per climb to 14k per bombing run? This sounds like Boyingtons stuff, hours of boredom.

If you would 'load terrain' AHTA08 offline, there are 30k, 20k, 15k, and 10k airfields.  They were placed on that terrain specifically for altitude flight testing and bombing practice 

[Ack-Ack]

By the way, AKAK was a tech in AW,

Yep and an AWAR (AW's equivalent of a game master).


ack-ack

[Murdr]

... maybe there is, best discussion I've seen yet was the amo one 151 vs mk2, you posted big in there.

In that discussion, from Stoney's research of Tony Williams resources, and others on the belt mix of rounds, I got the impression that the explosive power of the 151 seemed in line with real life data if HTC's intent was to average the power of a belt of mixed round types.  On the kinetic, it appeared to have the more favorable muzzle velocity figure of 800m/s, and was very close in energy loss at the 600m range data that Tony provided.  All in all the AH model seemed to me to treat that gun fairly.

To me your whole "bias" line is nonsensical.  That may be because I have gone so far as finding a minor, yet favorable, model error in my own ride, and questioned HTC on it so it could be corrected (and it was corrected by the way).