Author Topic: will it work????  (Read 974 times)

Offline RedTop

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 05:38:55 PM »
I think it will work super well for a subset of the population. It might or might not work, to some degree, for the rest of us.

Isn't it odd how the ONLY solution were were offered was the Paulson plan? No consideration of any alternative that would arrive at the same goal without bailing out Wall Street. Remarkable how the same folks that got us into this magically know, withing hours, the exact right way to get us out and how no consideration was made after the first bill failed to taking another route.

Amazing.

Charon

 :lol I was thinking that very thing when this first bill came up...how the frik can the very ones that cause it all of the sudden have the answers.

Which leads me to this question.....

Now I understand that there are more things at work than just this that I am going to ask....but...

Couldn't the government have simply adressed the housing problem with this...?

Make ALL the banks that were in trouble with bad loans , simply refinance EACH loan at a low 30 year fixed rate (instead of arm's) and not charged closing costs. Give the home owners that could afford it that chance and tell them this is all you get.

and MAKE the banks do it.....those that could afford those new deals could stay out of forclosure and those that couldnt were/nt ever going to be able to anyway.

Seems like that would have put ALOT of money BACK in play and even if ther WAS still a need for a bailout it would certainly have been alot less wouldn't it?
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Offline Shifty

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2008, 05:43:42 PM »
<S> Thomas
Shifty please tell your son howdy from my family and I - we'll never forget and always be in his debt

Thanks Eagler I appreciate it and will certainly tell him. He and I about to leave for his younger brother's football game.
Hangtime, Oak, sorry for the rant I didn't mean to highjack.
Sometimes things trigger a reaction, I apologize.
Hangtime I recognize that ribbon, my service was after that, but I served under many who earned it like you.
Thank you for your service during war  sir. <S>

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Offline Charon

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2008, 05:49:20 PM »
Fang, I understand what you're saying. But I lack the confidence in folks like Paulson to get it right regardless of how smart he is. Maybe he's one of those geniuses that are too smart and self assured for their own good. Maybe no one is too smart to individually, centrally manage a world economy. Did he prevent Goldman Sacks from falling into the trap?

I have admitted before I am an economics moron, essentially, but I was getting into fights with my wife a year ago over her wanting to go to part time hours when our new daughter was born (Sept 15, btw) and I remember using words like... this mess is going to blow up one of these days, soon, and it may not be a recession but a full blown depression..." Where were Paulson and Bernake? Why weren't they fixing the problem when there was time to perhaps actually fix it? And why are they suddenly so smart two weeks ago and not 6 months or 12 or 24 months before that?

My next question, is what's been happening with all of these exotic commodities trading creations that all the institutional money is churning around now? 400 times the speculator volume in energy futures compared to 2003. What's the chance of a blow up there?


Charon

Offline RedTop

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2008, 05:51:04 PM »
Somehow this will go slinking its way right thru to never never land I suspect....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html


WASHINGTON —  Unqualified home buyers were not the only ones who benefitted from Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank’s efforts to deregulate Fannie Mae throughout the 1990s.

So did Frank’s partner, a Fannie Mae executive at the forefront of the agency’s push to relax lending restrictions.

Now that Fannie Mae is at the epicenter of a financial meltdown that threatens the U.S. economy, some are raising new questions about Frank's relationship with Herb Moses, who was Fannie’s assistant director for product initiatives. Moses worked at the government-sponsored enterprise from 1991 to 1998, while Frank was on the House Banking Committee, which had jurisdiction over Fannie.

Both Frank and Moses assured the Wall Street Journal in 1992 that they took pains to avoid any conflicts of interest. Critics, however, remain skeptical.

"It’s absolutely a conflict," said Dan Gainor, vice president of the Business & Media Institute. "He was voting on Fannie Mae at a time when he was involved with a Fannie Mae executive. How is that not germane?

"If this had been his ex-wife and he was Republican, I would bet every penny I have - or at least what’s not in the stock market - that this would be considered germane," added Gainor, a T. Boone Pickens Fellow. "But everybody wants to avoid it because he’s gay. It’s the quintessential double standard."

A top GOP House aide agreed.

"C’mon, he writes housing and banking laws and his boyfriend is a top exec at a firm that stands to gain from those laws?" the aide told FOX News. "No media ever takes note? Imagine what would happen if Frank’s political affiliation was R instead of D? Imagine what the media would say if [GOP former] Chairman [Mike] Oxley’s wife or [GOP presidential nominee John] McCain’s wife was a top exec at Fannie for a decade while they wrote the nation’s housing and banking laws."

Frank’s office did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Frank met Moses in 1987, the same year he became the first openly gay member of Congress.

"I am the only member of the congressional gay spouse caucus," Moses wrote in the Washington Post in 1991. "On Capitol Hill, Barney always introduces me as his lover."

The two lived together in a Washington home until they broke up in 1998, a few months after Moses ended his seven-year tenure at Fannie Mae, where he was the assistant director of product initiatives. According to National Mortgage News, Moses "helped develop many of Fannie Mae’s affordable housing and home improvement lending programs."

Critics say such programs led to the mortgage meltdown that prompted last month’s government takeover of Fannie Mae and its financial cousin, Freddie Mac. The giant firms are blamed for spreading bad mortgages throughout the private financial sector.

Although Frank now blames Republicans for the failure of Fannie and Freddie, he spent years blocking GOP lawmakers from imposing tougher regulations on the mortgage giants. In 1991, the year Moses was hired by Fannie, the Boston Globe reported that Frank pushed the agency to loosen regulations on mortgages for two- and three-family homes, even though they were defaulting at twice and five times the rate of single homes, respectively.

Three years later, President Clinton’s Department of Housing and Urban Development tried to impose a new regulation on Fannie, but was thwarted by Frank. Clinton now blames such Democrats for planting the seeds of today’s economic crisis.

"I think the responsibility that the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was president, to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac," Clinton said recently
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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2008, 06:11:01 PM »
Fangio,
Just wanted to say that I'm glad to see you over here posting. I enjoyed your posts very much at AGW. I think you'll like it here. Most of us get along great, even those on political opposite sides on the fence. There is not one guy that posts here that I wouldn't go have a beer with.  :rock

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2008, 06:13:11 PM »
Wow. Just....wow. What do our liberal/democrat brethern have to say about this?  I'd particularly like to hear from mg1942.

Somehow this will go slinking its way right thru to never never land I suspect....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html


WASHINGTON —  Unqualified home buyers were not the only ones who benefitted from Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank’s efforts to deregulate Fannie Mae throughout the 1990s.

So did Frank’s partner, a Fannie Mae executive at the forefront of the agency’s push to relax lending restrictions.

Now that Fannie Mae is at the epicenter of a financial meltdown that threatens the U.S. economy, some are raising new questions about Frank's relationship with Herb Moses, who was Fannie’s assistant director for product initiatives. Moses worked at the government-sponsored enterprise from 1991 to 1998, while Frank was on the House Banking Committee, which had jurisdiction over Fannie.

Both Frank and Moses assured the Wall Street Journal in 1992 that they took pains to avoid any conflicts of interest. Critics, however, remain skeptical.

"It’s absolutely a conflict," said Dan Gainor, vice president of the Business & Media Institute. "He was voting on Fannie Mae at a time when he was involved with a Fannie Mae executive. How is that not germane?

"If this had been his ex-wife and he was Republican, I would bet every penny I have - or at least what’s not in the stock market - that this would be considered germane," added Gainor, a T. Boone Pickens Fellow. "But everybody wants to avoid it because he’s gay. It’s the quintessential double standard."

A top GOP House aide agreed.

"C’mon, he writes housing and banking laws and his boyfriend is a top exec at a firm that stands to gain from those laws?" the aide told FOX News. "No media ever takes note? Imagine what would happen if Frank’s political affiliation was R instead of D? Imagine what the media would say if [GOP former] Chairman [Mike] Oxley’s wife or [GOP presidential nominee John] McCain’s wife was a top exec at Fannie for a decade while they wrote the nation’s housing and banking laws."

Frank’s office did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Frank met Moses in 1987, the same year he became the first openly gay member of Congress.

"I am the only member of the congressional gay spouse caucus," Moses wrote in the Washington Post in 1991. "On Capitol Hill, Barney always introduces me as his lover."

The two lived together in a Washington home until they broke up in 1998, a few months after Moses ended his seven-year tenure at Fannie Mae, where he was the assistant director of product initiatives. According to National Mortgage News, Moses "helped develop many of Fannie Mae’s affordable housing and home improvement lending programs."

Critics say such programs led to the mortgage meltdown that prompted last month’s government takeover of Fannie Mae and its financial cousin, Freddie Mac. The giant firms are blamed for spreading bad mortgages throughout the private financial sector.

Although Frank now blames Republicans for the failure of Fannie and Freddie, he spent years blocking GOP lawmakers from imposing tougher regulations on the mortgage giants. In 1991, the year Moses was hired by Fannie, the Boston Globe reported that Frank pushed the agency to loosen regulations on mortgages for two- and three-family homes, even though they were defaulting at twice and five times the rate of single homes, respectively.

Three years later, President Clinton’s Department of Housing and Urban Development tried to impose a new regulation on Fannie, but was thwarted by Frank. Clinton now blames such Democrats for planting the seeds of today’s economic crisis.

"I think the responsibility that the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was president, to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac," Clinton said recently


Offline Tac

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2008, 06:28:55 PM »
Yup. No disrespect intended. <S!>

We're on a war footing with an infinitesimal commitment to a tiny force compared to the commitment made by this nation for WWII.  


Yep, he meant economy-wise. WW2 actually generated an insane amount of jobs. Can't say that now.

Offline Fangio

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2008, 06:41:52 PM »
Fangio,
Just wanted to say that I'm glad to see you over here posting. I enjoyed your posts very much at AGW. I think you'll like it here. Most of us get along great, even those on political opposite sides on the fence. There is not one guy that posts here that I wouldn't go have a beer with.  :rock


Thanks!   Much appreciated....


Folks do seem civil, and I have read lots of intelligent posts AND I am going to get off my lazy butt and get Aces High actually working and give the online fighter pilot thing another run.




Fang

Offline ghi

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2008, 06:43:45 PM »
Well, the bailout bill pass.  Now the real quesion is, WILL IT WORK?? 
 

No.
Because  like myself,  you are dressed from top to underwear in stuff made in Asia or Central America, sitting on a computer chair made in China and reading this post on a screen made  somewhere in Asia.

Offline Fangio

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2008, 06:53:29 PM »
Fang, I understand what you're saying. But I lack the confidence in folks like Paulson to get it right regardless of how smart he is. Maybe he's one of those geniuses that are too smart and self assured for their own good. Maybe no one is too smart to individually, centrally manage a world economy. Did he prevent Goldman Sacks from falling into the trap?



Actually,  Goldman has weathered this fairly well.  That is given the scope of the broader collapse. They certainly played the crazy derivatives game but then so did EVERYONE (probably to include your pension plan....) and at least Goldman did is smarter and better than most (meaning less exposure and better end assets).

I am NOT saying the Paulson is the worlds smartest man nor that I trust him nor that he can fix this.  I do not believe in King Hank.

But if I have to choose between Hank Paulson  OR   guys like Barney Frank, George Bush, Obama, Biden, Hillary....  basically between Paulson or the US Congress....  if that's my choice for who is the smartest and most capable at determining the correct course of action and then following through with hands on management to make the determined path succeed.... then it takes me 1 second to choose Paulson.  That is because he HAS demonstrated a 30 year history of extraordinary success while most in Congress have demonstrated nothing more than an ability to suck money from lobbyists and lie with a smile.

I would prefer that we had a true free market capitalist system and that the Govt. would do nothing and allow the markets to correct themselves.  But that completely unrealistic and never going to happen.

So if there IS going to be a giant bailout and someone is going to run it....  then unless Bill Gross could be shoved into the chair, Paulson is a good choice.  But then again,  in 5 months or so he will be gone and God only knows who will be in that chair!




Fang


Offline Stringer

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2008, 07:11:48 PM »
Fang,
I understand what you're saying about acting quickly but......I'm not so sure that the credit wasn't going to seize no matter what the timing was on getting this bill through.

I have advocated the same resolution as you stated, namely setting up something like the old RTC again.  Of course that would require more time than Paulson, et al, were willing to give....

Offline Fangio

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2008, 07:35:09 PM »
Fang,
I understand what you're saying about acting quickly but......I'm not so sure that the credit wasn't going to seize no matter what the timing was on getting this bill through.

I have advocated the same resolution as you stated, namely setting up something like the old RTC again.  Of course that would require more time than Paulson, et al, were willing to give....



You may be right.   IT very well may be that even if the Paulson planned had been passed and signed into law the day it was originally presented it still might not have worked. But it would have had a MUCH better chance than today when it really has little to no chance.  IF it had been passed that quickly and then upon working to implement it the situation became apparent that it was not going to have the desired effect then it could have simply been slowed and halted.

An RTC type of entity to deal with the ongoing mess would be the best solution. BUT, rather than have this new RTC buy up all of the wrecked debt paper itself, I would rather see this new organization work to research and define clearly all of the paper in question and then create a new public exchange upon which all of the paper AND all newly issued mortgage backed securities could then be publicly traded.

The best way for investors to be able to safely and transparently invest in mortgages is to have them traded on a public exchange just like stocks or commodities. The model of packaging $100 million in various loans and then securitizing them and selling to investors is just BAD. The investors have no good way of knowing exactly what they are really buying. But if the mortgages were openly traded.... and you could instantly research all the details such as home value, loan to value ratio, borrower credit scores..... all the core details, then investors would always know what they were buying and the free markets would always assign an appropriate value to the financial asset.

I would push someone like Bill Gross into the position of creating and managing this new entity.  That would make for a good solution....




Fang

Offline Stringer

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2008, 08:08:42 PM »
Fang,
Agreed on the RTC issue.

On the timing issue....when's the last time someone said sign and sign NOW ever worked out well for anyone?  Paulson may have rightly recognized the enormity and gravity of the situation, but his sign NOW OR ELSE just reminded too many folks of those limited time offer deals, IMO.

And he did not adequately sell the deal.....of course trying to put that deal into digestable bites is near impossible.


Offline Charon

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2008, 08:16:48 PM »
Quote
But if I have to choose between Hank Paulson  OR   guys like Barney Frank, George Bush, Obama, Biden, Hillary....  basically between Paulson or the US Congress....  if that's my choice for who is the smartest and most capable at determining the correct course of action and then following through with hands on management to make the determined path succeed.... then it takes me 1 second to choose Paulson.  That is because he HAS demonstrated a 30 year history of extraordinary success while most in Congress have demonstrated nothing more than an ability to suck money from lobbyists and lie with a smile.

No argument there.



Charon

Offline Hangtime

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Re: will it work????
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2008, 09:09:43 PM »
Thanks Eagler I appreciate it and will certainly tell him. He and I about to leave for his younger brother's football game.
Hangtime, Oak, sorry for the rant I didn't mean to highjack.
Sometimes things trigger a reaction, I apologize.
Hangtime I recognize that ribbon, my service was after that, but I served under many who earned it like you.
Thank you for your service during war  sir. <S>

You have nothing to apologize for.. if there's an apology due, it's from 'we the people', and it should be for NOT stopping what we as a nation were doing in the pursuit of profit and to continue to refuse the burden of sacrifice at home for victory abroad. Another war lost to the game of political football is not tolerable.

I remain resolved to not let happen to today's finest Americans, those that serve with pride; what the shirkers, apologists and the democrats found expedient to do to us 40 years ago.

We remember. You will not be abandoned. I believe I stand with the majority of veterans; honor has no timetable, victory has no palatable substitute.

<S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.