Author Topic: gotta love wall street  (Read 3021 times)

Offline Eagler

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gotta love wall street
« on: October 03, 2008, 03:55:40 PM »
monday the bottom drops out because they did not pass the money to wall street

tuesday it gains with the speculation they will pass it later in the week

add another billion plus and the thing passes, bush signs it and the stockmarket drops...

now the criminals on wall street state:

Stocks fall on fears bailout won't save economy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081003/bs_nm/us_markets_stocks_90

anyone wanna bet we give away another pile of billions by the end of this year?
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Offline Denholm

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 04:01:59 PM »
We probably will.



But I heard the stocks lost their gain because of news about the unemployment rate for last month. :huh
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Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 04:06:54 PM »
No way I take that bet.


This is a monetary system collapse driven by untenable debt levels. Its what has happened to pretty much every fiat based currency system ever devised and it has been building for a long time.

AS I see it, the question at this point is not whether or not the US is heading into a full blown depression...  its whether this will be an Inflationary Depression or a Deflationary Depression like the one in the 1930s.

Bernanke has made it clear many times that he believes an Inflationary depression is preferred as it is ultimately easier to recover from. That's not to say that it is not as destructive to assets, but simply that the ultimate bottom is reached sooner and thus the rebuilding process can begin sooner. I do tend to agree.

What has me stumped is how exactly the Fed plans to distribute to consumers the money it creates as it works to inflate the system and ultimately monetize all the debt. The traditional means for the Fed is to filter liquidity into the system through the banking system and lending. But despite the Fed pumping over $800 Billion into the system this year, banks are NOT lending largely because consumers are already tapped out and cannot afford to service additional debt. So the Fed may WANT to push money into the hands of consumers...  but it has no operating facility to do so.

So how is Bernanke going to ultimately achieve the inflation he will seek to drive?  Ongoing stimulus checks is one way....  massive Govt. works projects like the 1930s is another....  big time expansion of unemployment and entitlement programs is another.  It will be interesting to watch, and painful to live through either way.

Maybe Bernanke will drop money from helicopters as he once suggested....




Fang

Offline john9001

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2008, 04:10:34 PM »
the market is run by speculators/gamblers, if you change the gambling rules the market will be stable , but nobody can make millions per day in a stable market.

there are two kinds of people in the market, the investors who have a time line of 5 -10 years and the gamblers who have a time line of 5 - 10 minutes.

Offline Tac

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM »
"massive Govt. works projects like the 1930s is another"


I think that should be the way to go.

I say build the best friggan' internet node in the whole world here in the US (I know it is already but I mean BIGGER! Full fiber optic & shat).

Build effective and efficient railway systems (bring japanese engineers here to show how its done) nation-wide. That means EVERY city or town with more than 100k people gets to be in the grid.

Build the Texas Canal. Screw Panama. Also doubles as border security with mexico. Hard to sneak in when there's ships going through with armed people on the deck.

Supersize NASA. When the Chinese reach the moon charge them for parkin'!

...amongst others. ;)

 

Offline Charon

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2008, 06:42:50 PM »
Welcome to the board fang. What level of inflation are we talking about? Post WWI Germany (an extreme, obviously) or something more reasonable? What will be the real world impact from an employment and quality of life standpoint, in your opinion, since you seem to have some knowledge in the area?

Charon
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 06:49:22 PM by Charon »

Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 07:24:57 PM »
Welcome to the board fang. What level of inflation are we talking about? Post WWI Germany (an extreme, obviously) or something more reasonable? What will be the real world impact from an employment and quality of life standpoint, in your opinion, since you seem to have some knowledge in the area?

Charon


Thanks for the welcome....


Honestly,  I have no idea.   That's the $10 question.     

I have read a great deal from some really smart folks who believe the Fed will not be able to prevent a Deflationary Depression and we are going to see asset values crash. This argument is supported by what is happening now in real estate. Folks who think this is the direction thing will go believe the Fed will either not be capable of channeling enough created money to consumers to drive inflation or that consumers will refuse to spend even if they do benefit from fundings. Mike Shedlock feels this is the direction things will go.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/


Then again,  lots of folks think as I tend too that the Fed will end up doing anything and everything to flush the system with cash as required until it DOES drive spending. This is what Bernanke has indicated.....  before he became Fed Chairman. Bernanke is a top expert on the Great Depression and has written a good bit about it and his critique of actions taken then do clearly indicate that he believes monetary policy driven inflation would have made the entire event much less severe.

When I look at the bigger picture I see the events and issues that are playing out currently as truly the tip of the iceberg. Strip away all the political rhetoric and blame games and what your left with is the reality that all of these problems boil down to housing prices having gotten totally out of control. Home prices soared to levels that were simply unaffordable. Period. These absurdly inflated home prices drove absurd levels of debt. Levels of debt that simply were impossible to pay back.

How much debt?  Between 2004 and 2007, the time frame when the overwhelming majority of the mortgage loans in default were closed, the mortgage markets funded around $8.5 Trillion in total mortgages. About 50% of those were subprime or Alt-A or non-traditional conforming loan programs. In other words the kind of loan programs that drove this mess. This means about $4.25 Trillion in "questionable" loans were done. About 10% of these have experienced delinquencies and around 6% or so are in default. So all we are experiencing is the result of perhaps $255 billion in mortgage loans going to foreclosure. So why does that lead to the need for over $1 Trillion to bailout and another $ Trillion in Fed funds to prop up the system?   LEVERAGE.....    the banks too the hard asset (the mortgage and the house behind it) and they leveraged it and sold derivatives and CDO's and packaged it all up into complicated pools of mortgage loans that nobody was really sure what was in there but the ratings agencies called it AAA....

The end result is that we are facing a possible systemic collapse.

Here is what really worries me:   IF we are facing problems of this scope as the result of debt defaults on less than $1 Trillion in actual bad loans.....    what happens when the US Federal Govt. cannot fund its over $58 Trillion in currently unfunded liabilities?

It is clear that these obligations cannot be funded. At least not in todays dollars. But they can be funded in printed dollars.

So I feel that just as the Fed has so far responded to this crisis they will respond to the far greater crisis that is looming relative to entitlement funding shortfalls. They will expand the balance sheet, create money and purchase Treasury bonds thus providing the Govt. with new funds.

This will yield inflation. How much and how fast?   There is no way to know. How quickly will a specific crisis explode? How willing will the rest of the world be to buy up US debt even though it is obvious that the US is incapable of redeeming the paper?  How long will world oil markets continue to base their trade on a currency that is clearly being devalued by its backer?

I do not think things will deteriorate as quickly as they did in the Weimar Republic.  In that case, once the monetary supply inflation began the inflation rate immediately exploded. They went from inflation running 10% to over 10,000% in something like 8 months.  I do not see that happening.  I think it is more likely that things will expand from current levels to something like 25% over a period of several very painful years and then it will rapidly crash to something approaching 3 figures before we get intervention and the deployment of a new currency system.

But thats just my guess....




Fang




Offline Charon

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2008, 08:25:46 PM »
Quote
I do not think things will deteriorate as quickly as they did in the Weimar Republic.  In that case, once the monetary supply inflation began the inflation rate immediately exploded. They went from inflation running 10% to over 10,000% in something like 8 months.  I do not see that happening.  I think it is more likely that things will expand from current levels to something like 25% over a period of several very painful years and then it will rapidly crash to something approaching 3 figures before we get intervention and the deployment of a new currency system.

But thats just my guess....

Here you are, new to the board, and I'm going to bug you one more time :)

What would you do if you happened to be fairly cash heavy and very low debt? Where would you park the cash before it inflates into nothing? All the debt is basically 7 years left on a modest 15-year low fixed rate mortgage, and the cash will cover about 1/2 of that in total with 2 years of living expenses set aside.

Again, welcome to the board, sorry to be such a parasite :)


Charon


Offline kamilyun

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2008, 09:16:16 PM »
Here you are, new to the board, and I'm going to bug you one more time :)

Okay, maybe I'm retarded, or my computer is, but I see him registered in 2001.  Is that a bug?  Or am I just stoopid?

Offline Bodhi

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 09:29:50 PM »
Fangio, absolutely impressive read.  As Charon said, it seems you have a good grasp of the situation and fantastic insight.
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Offline Hangtime

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2008, 09:32:26 PM »
Fang, as a little kid, once I knew what the boogy man in the closet looked like, I was able to sleep.

Thanks for making nodding off tonight possible.

seriously.

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Offline Dnil

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2008, 02:18:12 AM »
fang is old school, he has been on the agw-ot boards until recently.  Luckily he resurfaced on this board.

Offline Sparks

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2008, 04:58:10 AM »
Hi Fang,

OK I get it up to this point .....

Quote
LEVERAGE.....    the banks too the hard asset (the mortgage and the house behind it) and they leveraged it and sold derivatives and CDO's and packaged it all up into complicated pools of mortgage loans that nobody was really sure what was in there but the ratings agencies called it AAA....

I have heard about this on the news and this is the bit where my brain circuit breaker trips.  Could you explain this bit in idiot level english  :confused:

Considering the absurd price of housing in the UK I wonder if we are due for the same train wreck ????

Sparks



Offline lazs2

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2008, 10:24:35 AM »
I have read most of the smart people and it seems that they all agree....

They don't have a clue.    Nothing of this scale has ever been tried before in this kind of an economy.   Most of the indicators do not show a depression..  we are way better off for now at least.

It could go either way or it could become a mild but fairly long recession that will adjust the markets.

There is a huge pent up demand for credit and for housing.. that will not go away... not until it is met.  It is my hope that those who planned well and are not tooooo... debt heavy and have good credit and a medium fair steady source of income will weather it just fine so long as they have some inflation protection.

That is my hope anyway and I will retire soon sooo..  even tho it is not the best time.. I think I am set up well enough to still have a roof over my head and not have to eat the cat.

The real pressure will come from socialist programs and the real villan.. The frigging EPA..   all of us will be paying about $500 a month or more for things that are mandated to "end man made global warming" and "protect the environment"   many of these things we will see...  $150 a month sewer bills..   water bills tripled...   fuel prices double.. new storm water fees for watering you lawn and such and the treatment of storm water (it is coming believe me)...   others will be hidden..  everything you buy will have given some portion to the EPA socialist monster... 

In kalifornia for instance.. every company that uses diesel powered anything will have double or more operating costs due to them being forced to throw away most of their diesel engines every few years.  No matter what condition they are in.   They will pass the cost to you..  "carbon caps"

Then again..  maybe the economy will tank so bad that we can't afford to pay the EPA gestapo.

lazs

Offline john9001

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2008, 02:58:10 PM »
the EPA's budget for 2009 is $7.14 billion, that money could be used for something else.