Author Topic: gotta love wall street  (Read 2993 times)

Offline moot

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2008, 03:18:27 PM »
Welcome (back) to the board, Fangio.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2008, 05:02:34 PM »
Here you are, new to the board, and I'm going to bug you one more time :)

What would you do if you happened to be fairly cash heavy and very low debt? Where would you park the cash before it inflates into nothing? All the debt is basically 7 years left on a modest 15-year low fixed rate mortgage, and the cash will cover about 1/2 of that in total with 2 years of living expenses set aside.

Again, welcome to the board, sorry to be such a parasite :)


Charon

I would say it depends on your objectives and time threshold.   Also, whether or not you need whatever you park the cash into to yield income or simply grow to exceed the inflation rate.

Personally,  I am taking advantage of the real estate crash to buy up dirt cheap homes for rental.  Where I am located  (Atlanta),  the real estate market never saw the absurd appreciation like in Florida, California, Arizona, Nevada and many other areas. Between 2000 and 2007 homes went up in value on average around 3% - 4% a year max. But during that time in many inner city neighborhood the mortgage fraud was just crazy. There are some areas where literally 80% of the homes are now owned by banks after having foreclosed. These banks are reaching the "capitulation stage" on pricing these homes to sell. So there are great opportunities if you have cash to use to buy the homes and rent them out. The rental market is very strong and the homes cash flow like crazy. Real Estate has also historically been an excellent hedge against inflation. So this accomplishes my goal of investing in hard, real assets while yielding strong monthly income and protecting against longer term inflation.

But in many markets out there, particularly those that were red hot 2 years ago, I think real estate values have a long ways to go down. I would NOT buy real estate in California or Florida....

I hope that helps....  its just my opinion... YMMV



Fang

Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2008, 05:19:16 PM »
Okay, maybe I'm retarded, or my computer is, but I see him registered in 2001.  Is that a bug?  Or am I just stoopid?


No bug....       I played AH a bit when it very first came out and thus had an account and posted a few times but I didnt post much or fly much.  I flew Warbirds going back to the beta days of 1995 and I have fond memories of monthly bills over $500 back when it was billed at $3 an hour or whatever it was.  Ahhhhhh   the good old days.....      Handle was (is) Fang which was always short for Fangio after Juan Manuel Fangio the greatest race car driver of all time.  Warbirds back in the day only allowed a 4 character handle you know.


Anyhow,  nice to make your acquaintance.   :)



Fang

Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2008, 05:51:25 PM »
Hi Fang,

OK I get it up to this point .....

I have heard about this on the news and this is the bit where my brain circuit breaker trips.  Could you explain this bit in idiot level english  :confused:



I can take a crack at it...   BUT,  I honestly am not 100% clear on how it was all done myself and I have not only read a good bit about it but a friend whom I used to work with in the mortgage business and who went on to deal with collateralizations and SIV's explained how they did theirs but some of it still makes no sense to me.  I suspect that a situation may have developed where nobody really know what they were doing but everyone was making lots of money so nobody cared.

Ok....    So a lender puts together a set of mortgage loan underwriting guidelines.  That includes credit requirements, program parameters (term, amortization...), collateral requirements, loan to value and debt to income ratios and a whole mess of other areas to evaluate for approval. Underwriting guidelines often run 100+ pages or more for a given loan program.

The lender then has these guidelines reviewed by a ratings agency like Standard and Poors or Moody's and the loan pool that is to be made up of the mortgage underwritten to the guidelines is given a rating, hopefully AAA or AA.

Now the lender takes the loan program to market and begins closing and funding mortgages. This may be through direct retail channels but more often it is through offering the products to the huge network of independent mortgage brokers across the nation. The lender will then fund the closed loans through a warehouse line of credit, basically a short term lending credit line used to fund mortgage short term until they can be packaged up into a large pool of loans and sold off. Depending on the size of the lender, they may pool up a bunch of loans (usually less than $500 million) and sell off the entire pool in once package to a much larger lender.  Many of the largest lenders actually do nothing buy buy up smaller pools and then package them into much larger pools and securitize them.

Once a pool of loans that is very large is acquired....  the lender will confirm the ratings agency rating and then structure up securities or bonds to sell that will be backed by the mortgages. These are Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS).  This market is fairly simple and determining the assets value is also simple.

But Derivatives....  thats a mess.   Here is what Wiki says...


A credit derivative is a derivative whose value derives from the credit risk on an underlying bond, loan or other financial asset. In this way, the credit risk is on an entity other than the counterparties to the transaction itself.[1] This entity is known as the reference entity and may be a corporate, a sovereign or any other form of legal entity which has incurred debt.[2] Credit derivatives are bilateral contracts between a buyer and seller under which the seller sells protection against the credit risk of the reference entity.[3]

The parties will select which credit events apply to a transaction and these usually consist of one or more of the following:

    * bankruptcy (the risk that the reference entity will become bankrupt)
    * failure to pay (the risk that the reference entity will default on one of its obligations such as a bond or loan)
    * obligation default (the risk that the reference entity will default on any of its obligations)
    * obligation acceleration (the risk that an obligation of the reference entity will be accelerated e.g. a bond will be declared immediately due and payable following a default)
    * repudiation/moratorium (the risk that the reference entity or a government will declare a moratorium over the reference entity's obligations)
    * restructuring (the risk that obligations of the reference entity will be restructured).

Where credit protection is bought and sold between bilateral counterparties this is known as an unfunded credit derivative. If the credit derivative is entered into by a financial institution or a special purpose vehicle and payments under the credit derivative are funded using securitization techniques, such that a debt obligation is issued by the financial institution or SPV to support these obligations, this is known as a funded credit derivative.

This synthetic securitization process has become increasingly popular over the last decade, with the simple versions of these structures being known as synthetic CDOs; credit linked notes; single tranche CDOs, to name a few. In funded credit derivatives, transactions are often rated by rating agencies, which allows investors to take different slices of credit risk according to their risk appetite.

-------------


So...  investment bankers who were selling off the MBS's decided that these relatively simple investment vehicles needed more goodies to be associated with them.  Goodies to supposedly help mitigate or spread around the risk.  These default swap derivatives could be bought supposedly as a means of spreading risk from a position in just one pool of MBS to MANY such pools. So the simplest way to think of these derivatives is to think of them like insurance in the sense that the derivative itself has value as a security and can be traded and the yield and value from the derivative is meant to offset potential loss from the MBS itself.

The problem is that delinquencies and defaults on MBS's have exceeded by a large margin ratings agency projections and this has caused the value of the supposedly hedging against such risk derivatives to become impossible to determine. The mortgages backing the MBS's are not servicing as they were supposed too and the values of the derivatives were based on the MBS's projected servicing expectations. This is not on just a few pools of MBS's.....  but LOTS  (all???).  This is made much worse by the fact that these MBS's are not publicly traded and those holding them do not release data on how they are performing and in fact do not want to do so because if they did it would push the MBS's value much lower and potentially make the holder insolvent  (mark to market anyone?).

The way the risks on these MBS's SHOULD have been managed was with insurance.  But insurance does not pay like derivatives do and who wants to be an insurance salesman when you can be a Hedge Fund manager?

I hope that helps.  If you do not really understand it,  you have lots of good company as I am not really sure ANYONE does and that is itself a huge part of the problem.  One of the reasons an RTC type of solution to this is difficult is the crazy complicated nature of this debt paper.




Fang

Offline Nwbie

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2008, 11:57:42 AM »
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 12:03:44 PM by Nwbie »
Skuzzy-- "Facts are slowly becoming irrelevant in favor of the nutjob."

Offline lazs2

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2008, 12:10:35 PM »
Houses have depreciated so much in some areas that now you can buy one and rent it out for as much or more as the payment.   this has not happened in Kalifornia for many decades.. it won't happen again for many decades..

If you have money... you can make money in housing right now.    some will come out of this owning 3 or four houses that are all worth twice as much as they paid for em.

some will just slit their wrists once they have said "we are doomed" enough times.

lazs

Offline Fangio

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2008, 02:33:25 PM »
Houses have depreciated so much in some areas that now you can buy one and rent it out for as much or more as the payment.   this has not happened in Kalifornia for many decades.. it won't happen again for many decades..

If you have money... you can make money in housing right now.    some will come out of this owning 3 or four houses that are all worth twice as much as they paid for em.

some will just slit their wrists once they have said "we are doomed" enough times.

lazs


Completely agree..... 

In fact, you can do much better than simply having the house payment covered by the rent.  That is, at least here in Atlanta.   With the values where they are you can buy a foreclosed home and renovated it and when complete and rented out you may have $65K invested in a home that will rent for $800 - $950. The cash flow is great AND the resale market in these prices ranges is fairly strong.

The only downside is that it does take a lot of work and looking to find the decent houses from among all the horrid crap and if you do not have cash to use in buying the terrible credit markets situation pretty much excludes you from the opportunities.



Fang

Offline kamilyun

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2008, 09:38:38 PM »
Stupid question time again:

In an inflationary depression, isn't carrying debt not so much of a bad thing?  If you were to buy the same item, say a car, in 2012, wouldn't its increased price more than offset the terms of your financing (assuming the very low 2 to 4% deals I see on TV now)?

Or will everything cost that much more that you'll be burdened buying bread, milk and gas?

Offline Toad

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2008, 09:48:11 PM »
Here is a wide ranging letter from an investment advisor with a following on the whole mess.
May not want to jump into those good housing buys just yet.

http://www.forexfactory.com/news.php?s=fd247bb9d52c7ceac723d6d560bb6245&do=news&id=111657

The Curve in the Road by John Mauldin


Quote
...The reality is that the rescue plan does not fundamentally alter the US economic landscape. There can be no doubt we are in a recession. I think it will be dated from the beginning of the year, notwithstanding the odd 2nd quarter growth. The manufacturing ISM was a dismal 43.5 (under 50 means a contracting US manufacturing industry). Such a level is typically associated with recessions, as the chart below shows. Given the financial crisis and the freefall in auto sales, this index is likely to fall further...

....Next week we will explore the economic landscape in detail, but let me provide a few thoughts. As I have said for a long time, we will be talking about deflation this time next year. Recessions are by definition deflationary events. Given that we have had two bubbles burst (housing and credit), there is even more potential for deflationary pressures. Add into the mix the deleveraging process, which will take years to finally abate, and the recent bout of price inflation caused by energy and food will pass, as demand destruction for oil will hold oil prices in check.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2008, 07:34:03 PM »
just in case this thread gets locked like some of the others,
like to thank you, Fang, for some of the best insight on this entire mess
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline Nwbie

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2008, 12:42:25 AM »
http://blogs.ft.com/wolfforum/2008/10/why-federal-reserve-policy-is-failing/

Also read this guys reply at the bottom: Ernst G. Walter Langmann

Informative piece


Skuzzy-- "Facts are slowly becoming irrelevant in favor of the nutjob."

Offline Nilsen

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2008, 02:44:07 AM »
Ive read all you have written Fangio and found myself nodding. You have basicly put into more detail and simple to understand wording what i have said here since the mess started.

Oh and happy hunting. I am in the market for a couple of appartments . Over here the prices on dwellings are falling but the demand for dwellings in the center of Oslo is rising as it always have been. What has happended is that people are less willing than before to borrow to buy so as demand is still growing, that demand has now gone to renting rather than buying and the prices are rising. I plan to buy two high end appartments with some of my savings and then rent them out for a year or two, or until the prices for selling them are up again.  :) The rest of my savings will stay in the bank where they now get between 7 and 10% interest.

Offline lazs2

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2008, 08:23:42 AM »
Fang.. what is happening in kalifornia is that for the first time in decades you can buy a home (with a decent downpayment) and rent it out for about what the payments are.. it is pretty much impossible still to make much of a profit on the rent unless you tie up a whole bunch of your money in the downpayment.

This is a state where people want to live.  If you stop building then the rent side goes crazy.   We are also a state of high illegal and "low income" people with a very active socialist machine.. section 8 is very active here and will pay several thousand a month for an illegal family to live in any house that is available.

With no building going on this will continue for some time.. until more are built.. by that time.. any homes you have bought and rented out will have doubled in value.

The fly in the ointment is a possible "fix" by the government.   I fear that the more socialist the government that is in the easier it will be to sell the idea of the government taking over not only the lending but the building of new homes.

I know this sounds... a bit far fetched but.. they have made forays..   habitat for humanity is about taken over now by the government.. think of it as a pilot program.   here..  most builders are forced to build so many "low income" houses before they can get permits to build.. the cities force them because the state forces them to have so many because....  well...   It is easy for me to see where this is going.   

They have always been active in the craphole large cities with "the projects"  but people won't move to the city and everyone knows what the projects are and what life in them is like.   imagine whole tracts of project homes in the suburbs.

lazs

Offline Dos Equis

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2008, 09:15:00 AM »

Maybe Bernanke will drop money from helicopters as he once suggested....

Fang

He should put whiteface on when he does that, dress up in a purple vintage suit with a purple fedora. Then he can fly overhead and yell "Who loves ya, baby! Free money! Who do ya trust!" from a bullhorn.




Offline Dos Equis

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Re: gotta love wall street
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2008, 09:16:42 AM »

Juan Manuel Fangio the greatest race car driver of all time.  Warbirds back in the day only allowed a 4 character handle you know.

Fang

FYI - Fang was quite a good Ferrari driver in GPL.