Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[dkff49]

OK BNZ it sems that your biggest problem here is the fact that the fight that you are involved in gets ruined. Right?

well I'll tell the one thing ticks me off the most when I finally find a great and fun furball. It is the base takers sneaking in with gv's and taking the base.

Now there is a big furball killer. Let's take out the base taking abilities in the game too. While we are at it.

 I mean nothing kills a big fight more times than a base take.

 

[LYNX]

Bloody hell....9 pages just to come up with this...

by BnZ

So you see, this has nothing to do with whether or not I personally have trouble attacking buffs, as you can see, on the rare occasions I do attack buffs, I make a profit on doing so

So the "fire all guns" is pretty much a mute point.  In effect your agreeing bombers are easy meat, which they are if they don't have altitude on their side.  Their slow, big, cumbersome and have to fly straight n level to make their drop.  Sitting bloody ducks really especially considering the majority of  buff user don't take gunners and or escorts.

So this leaves the devastating effect bombers have on YOUR style of game play.  I can marginally sympathise but get a grip mate.  It's not like the hangers are down for an hour and in most cases there down for about 10 to 12 min max.  It's not like another furball will not develop elsewhere.  I mean if you can't be arsed then another furball wont happen 

I will concede that bombing accuracy is way to easy and personally I would like to see the return of the old calibration, salvo, delay method.  However I don't think that's on HTC's agenda any time soon or curtailing the dive bombing heavy's.  I assume it's something to do with newbies and affording them (newbies) a messure of gratification so the addiction really kicks in  but that's my assumption.


by BnZ

Upping a formation of buffs is the one thing an individual player can do to have an effect on moving all out of proportion to anything else he can do. Under conditions where a base is actually being defended, I'd say a high-altitude bomber attack by two people in buffs is more likely to gain you a base than a CV attack with a dozen participants.

Kaa-Ching.. You do realise this is a multi faceted game with different styles of game play and, different types of players.  It's the MA chap....it's all here in one big arena.  Can't deal base takers, bombers, Gv'ers, 5 inch gunners then your in the WRONG place.  As clear and as simple as that. 

Jesus!... man!...you may as well start a thread about HO's.....I'm outta this one.  It's going nowhere very slowly.

[SkyRock]

Better and simpler for who?  Certainly not the buff drivers.

Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction.  Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.

1 player, 1 plane.

[BnZ]

OK BNZ it sems that your biggest problem here is the fact that the fight that you are involved in gets ruined. Right?

well I'll tell the one thing ticks me off the most when I finally find a great and fun furball. It is the base takers sneaking in with gv's and taking the base.

Now there is a big furball killer. Let's take out the base taking abilities in the game too. While we are at it.

 I mean nothing kills a big fight more times than a base take.

 

Hey, I'm the guy whose always thought the "1 suicide 190 takes out ords, 1 jabo takes out VHs, GVs have a free hand" loophole was bad.

That said, and individual in a GV just doesn't have the same effectiveness. Try taking out ALL hangars on a base with a T-34 and HE rounds. Time yourself. I'll see you next week some time.

As it stands, with regards to moving the map, everything you can do besides upping heavy buffs and leveling the field is ineffective by comparison.

[Anaxogoras]

Them's fightin' words in your sig, Bnz!

[BaldEagl]

Under MA conditions, anyone with a little sense ups bombers in such a way that they hold the cards in surprise and initiative, every time. ... I'd say a high-altitude bomber attack by two people in buffs is more likely to gain you a base than a CV attack with a dozen participants.

Oh please!  You can't read a map either?

Most of the heavies climb at ~5K/sector (1K/min).  A "high alt" bomb run then has to start 4-5 sectors away from the intended target in order to get to alt, stabalize speed and calibrate before reaching the target.  WHAT A SURPRISE when they show up!

Tip:  Look for small darbars upping far away from the fight.

And how can you NOT have time to intercept?  I mean, what are you flying that takes over 20 minutes to get to 20K?

[dkff49]

That said, and individual in a GV just doesn't have the same effectiveness. Try taking out ALL hangars on a base with a T-34 and HE rounds. I'll see you next week time.

As true as the above quote is a few gv's sneaking into town and taking down town and maproom kills the fight at that base much longer than a single formation of bombers can do.

Aside from that I was simply pointing out that there are many aspects of the game that stop great fights. I just think there are some that happen more often than the lone bombers formation.

Someone also stated that taking down hangers usually only stops fighters form taking off for at the most 10-12 mintues and usually it's only 5-7 minutes. Either way the furball will restart somewhere else. I have seen it several times and usually it irritates me but only long enough to find where the furball moved to.

To be completely honest the ones that irritate me the most are the ones that insist on coming in and taking the base where our great furball has finally gotten good. The thing is though there is nothing I can do about it and my type of game play is not the only or the most popular or the best way to play. It is just one way and like everyone else you simply need to learn to read the map to be able to find what you like to do and prepared for someone to ruin it for you.

Oh and by the way there some who feel the best way to play is to fly around ticking people off, so I say if you want to give them what they want then continue getting mad enough to post over the bb's about it and sure enough they will continue.

Just my take on the situation not really intended to be a personal slam there BnZ

[Lusche]

And how can you NOT have time to intercept?  I mean, what are you flying that takes over 20 minutes to get to 20K?

Heavy buffs at max level speed roughly cover 25 miles (1 sector) in 5 1/2 minutes.
A 109K4 can do the same, but including taking off from sea level and climbing to 10k. If just climbing, the 109 will be past 20K after the same time.

Heavy bomber level speeds may be unrealistic, but so is the fighter pilots ability to be back at the bombers after a few mins when being shot down by them. A bomber pilot being shot down is no more threat for a long time.

Having formations is important for game balance. Removing formations makes them even more dead meat than they are now, and the few very dedicated bomber players will invariably tend to cruise at even higher altitudes, 25-30k bombers would probably the norm, not the exception.

Unless bombers fly at 20k+ they are easy to catch and to kill, in almost any plane. It's simply not true that fighters can't keep up or overtake them, only ha few EW planes have such problems. (Though I killed 999000 in a Hurri I once... a day to remember )




The only real problem is, as already pointed out in this thread, the lack of patience. It's amazing how people can spend 5mins to climb up to a bomber, and then are too impatient to spend another minute or two to gain a favorable attack position.

A very common sight in the MA: A bomber formation at 10k, followed by a trail of greedy fighters creeping up at their 6. One after one goes down in flames, and the whining about "friggin lazer guns" starts. It's just the same as flying right head-on into an enemy 110's gun arc, and then complaining about "lame HO's".
It's sure, not everybody will reach 10-1 KDs versus buffs, but everybody could get a very favorable K/D against them if flying just with a bit more brain

I do occasionally fly buffs myself, and only a small percentage of fighters care to get into a good attacking position. Those that do usually kill me, even when not being one of that "1337" pilots.

And yes, even with proper tactics a victory over that buffs is never guaranteed...but frankly, why are you looking for guaranteed kills? Why should someone fly buffs when they are completely helpless?
 
And keep in mind that the majority of buff pilots are new / inexperienced players, one common road of progression in this game is to jump into a fighter first, die a lot, and then flying bombers for a long time until feeling comfortable with the game and trying fighters again

[LTARogue]

Good post Lusche and if I could add....In real life when German fighters took off to attack the endless droves of bombers over their cities they did not and were not "expected" to come back with multiple kills. Their goal was to bring down at least one (1) heavy bomber and make it home alive. Yes our formation of buffs can open up with all guns but that is all we have. In WWII you would never see only 3 B-17's or 24's flying in formation over NME territory. They had numerous other friends (read lots of other guns firing at all angles) with them for defense. The key is to spend that xtra few minutes to climb higher and attack from a different angle other than dead six. I'll admit that I attack from the 6 sometimes with the hope that the pilot is afk or doesn't know how to fire all guns, or is just a bad shot. Sometimes I go in knowing I will die but I am only trying to throw the pilot off his bombing run or trying to take one or two out to keep them from fullfilling their mission. Sometimes I am "softening" them up or catching one on fire getting em ready for the other guys climbing up. You know I saw Pacerr (hope it was Pacerr in a Tempest killing 17's with one pass. His stated tactic against 17's? Aim for the cockpit and kill the pilot and he was deadly at that. Didn't use the same tactic against my paper Lancs tho.

LTARogue

[palef]

Head on or oblique co-alt attacks. High AoA oblique and head on attacks. 6 only as a last resort when impatient and lazy or drunk.

It is the big deal you guys make it out to be. If the conga line turned itself into a tight formation and attacked dead 6 maybe one would die before all the buffs go down.

It's an aspect of the game that can be countered and there aren't that many good buff guys on at the same time.

Personally I find 26s the hardest of the lot to kill because you have to use the oblique pass method thanks to the nose guns.

I don't think it deserves a comment as much as the fact that the Tiger is now needlessly perked. For instance. IMO.

[MajIssue]

Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent  them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.

I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.

The "problem" you misidentify isn't that the formations of 3 BUFFs are destabilizing, but that most players are either too impatient or lazy to climb to 12-15K to kill them, When most of the nooblings do up to try to stop the BUFFs from "nuking" their base, they foolishly approach from the BUFFs low 6. I am surely not the first player to discover that a SINGLE buff will shoot you out of the sky of you are at his low six and climbing to within guns range.

This is an issue of tactics and priorities not the structure of the game.

To me the solution is simple, KILL the enemy BUFFs before they drop your hangers!!! Dealing with fighters over the "target" will at least effect the accuracy of the BUFFs drop and you might even get a kill or two! There is no shortage of good BUFF hunters in AH... I've been shot down by most of 'em. Watch, listen and learn... then apply those lessons.  Otherwise I have a very nice round of Brie to go with your whine!

[Chalenge]

The real problem as I see it is that just like with CVs there isnt anyone willing to provide top cover for a 'furball' and so a bomber always will get though and stop the 'fun.' There are other ways to have fun you know and I know for a fact the bomber pilot is having fun too.

[PFactorDave]

Is it just me, or is an important part of this entire equation being severely glossed over in this thread?

It isn't that bombers are too hard to shoot down.  The issue is that they are too hard to INTERCEPT BEFORE they have the chance to deliver their payloads, which makes them unreasonably powerful when it comes to a single formation shutting down the FH's on an airbase, for instance.

But whatever, I guess...

[dkff49]

Is it just me, or is an important part of this entire equation being severely glossed over in this thread?

It isn't that bombers are too hard to shoot down.  The issue is that they are too hard to INTERCEPT BEFORE they have the chance to deliver their payloads, which makes them unreasonably powerful when it comes to a single formation shutting down the FH's on an airbase, for instance.

But whatever, I guess...

Just because it causes problems at one fight does not make it unbalancing to the game as the title and original post implies. That is where the posts regarding how easy it is to kill them comes into play.

Bombers do have the ability to ruin the large furballs and large scale fights for certain bases and maybe without much of a chance of resistance, but in the overall scheme of things they are not that unbalancing.

[Chalenge]

Not at all unbalancing I would say because most bomber pilots tha want to 'drop hangars' attack a field from just 12-14k and its really really easy to circle a fighter or two on the edge of the fields radar circle and intercept them. Now if you are like most furballers and you are circle fighting at 3k and below then of course you wont get there in time and you will have to get a snack or beer until the hangars come back up or even find another furball.