Verm, I hate to do this but...

[Wisk-=VF-101=-]

That webpage was the first source I saw that gave ShVAK's muzzle velocity below 800m/s. I didn't find any bibliography there, I wonder where they took their data from. Also there is a great variety of ammo - which types were actually used in ShVAKs during WWII?

Also, they mention there were two versions with different lengths of the barrel, but they don't differentiate between them in the specs, so the length of the barrel didn't change anything ?

BTW, I found that the ShVAKs that are installed on fighters are referred to as the "SP-20". Which raises the question, was it a different version or just a different designation ?

[Vermillion]

Here is a preview of what I'm working on. I was able to construct a projected Speed vs Alt chart for the La7 given known data points, and its similarity to the La5FN. I am also working on the equivalanet climb vs alt chart also.

Here is what is done so far.

 

Black = La7
Blue = Typhoon
Green = P-51D
Red = 109G10

And I plan to add the F4U-1 to the comparison as well. I can also add in the Fw190D9 as soon as we get a chart available on it.

Similar to the Typhoon that we already have, down right on the deck the La7 is fastest, but it quickly is taken over by other planes.  By 7,000ft both the P-51D and 109G10 (and most likely the F4U-1), are all faster.

This is only one small portion of my comparison. I will also look at climb/acceleration vs altitude, turn rates (if I get the time to do the in game testing) , gun lethality, ammo loads, Operational range, and external ordinance. So you will get the "totality of the whole".

Just giving you a taste of what I'm preparing.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Wisk-=VF-101=-]

Verm, I don't know about 51 or F4U but G10 overtakes the La-7 in speed at about 6.3km (which is above 18k) if to look only at those power augmentation engine modes that can be sustained for 10min. I don't have the G10 data for the emergency power that it can only sustain for 1-2min, so it might be that fast in that mode.


[This message has been edited by Wisk-=VF-101=- (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Whisk, I'm using WEP speeds for all aircraft in this comparison, and all the data comes directly from the Aces High charts to reflect in game performance.

The La7 data is calculated given the La5fn curve and the known La7 data points from Gordon & Khazanov.

The Fw190D9 (with MW50) data is from the Focke Wulf factory tests table in the Ta152 book, and the test documents that Naudet posted.

The G10 line represents the WEP in Aces High which I believe can be maintained for up to 10 minutes, the longest of any fighter in the game.

Here is the final version of this particular chart. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a chance to do the rest I talked about.

Anyone still think the La7 is uber and needs perked?

 

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Lephturn]

Great info Verm!

Could you be a sport and add the P-47D in there for me?  That would rock.  If you don't mind, I'd like to post this on my web page... with credit of course!  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[juzz]

1. The La-7 can out-turn all of those planes.
2. It can out-climb all bar the G-10.
3. It has arguably better guns than all bar the Typhoon/F4U-1C, or G-10 with gondolas.
4. The Spitfire XIV only does about 360mph at sea level.  

All the planes on that chart(except the Typhoon Ib and F4U-1D) should all be perked, if any one of them is made a perk.

[fscott]

Verm, your speeds for the 190d9 look suspect. I've seen in many books that with MW50 it attains only 357 mph on the deck.

The La7 speed curve is also suspect. You say you got this curve from Gorgon and Khasonov, but they do not have speed curves. They only give you speeds on deck and at alt. You base your La7 curve on the La5n curve, but this could be in error.

Additionally, I believe the 109g10 takes over the La7 in speed at 18k.

Additionally, as someone just posted, the La7 can climb and outturn just about all those aircraft you have there.  

Finally, if the La7 is perked, I'll be flying quite a bit cause I know it will rock. In tour 12 I had the most kills in the La5N and didn't even fly it that much. I know how good they are, and the La7 will beat anything you see there under 10k, where the majority of fights take place.

fscott

[This message has been edited by fscott (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Fscott,

Two charts for Dora, both from the Focke Wulf factory. The 357 is the Non-MW50 speed.
Chart 1  http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-4.jpg
Chart 2  http://people.freenet.de/Lutz_Naudet/D9speed2chart.jpg

The curve for the La7 is done by taking the La5FN curve from Aces High, and adjusting it to hit the known data points from Gordon & Khazanov. Principally the 380mph at SL, and the 408 at 19,250ft. Since they have the same engine, same general weight, and the same wing, the curve shape will be very similar if not the same.  No its not exact, but its awful awful close. If you can do better, please do so.

The G10 Curve is exactly from the Aces High chart. If you think its wrong, talk to Pyro.

Juzz, the La7 can not outturn all those planes. Not at all. The La7 has a turn time of 20.5 seconds, the La5FN has a turn time of 19 seconds, and the Yak-9U has a turn time of 20 seconds (all Gordon & Khazanov numbers). Back when the Yak-9U first came out in Aces High, I did sustained turn tests for the La5FN, Yak-9U, and the Pony. Both VVS planes hit the numbers within the margin of error of the Khazanov numbers (listed above), and the Pony had roughly the same turn times as the Yak-9U (but in opposite directions).  Now I know instantaneous turn rates changed in 1.04, but I don't believe sustained turn rates did (and they shouldn't have). So unless something drastic has changed, the La7 will turn about like the P-51 and Yak-9U. It is not a TnB plane like you all are describing. If I get the time though, I will repeat the turn time tests for all the planes in the chart above.

Also Juzz, by your own statement, about half the planes listed above would have equivalent firepower, and almost every one of them has more ammunition. So its middle of the road in lethality, with shorter firing lengths. ie Average, and below average in gun categories.

You guys are so quick to point out where it is good, but you conviently ignore where it is bad in comparison to all the rest. Range, lack of drop tanks, ammo loads, visibility, and non external ordinance at all. So its the worst of all the planes in the comparison in those categories. Remember from your own statements "totality of the circumstances".

Climb rates I haven't gotten too yet.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-03-2001).]

[fscott]

Thje problem I have with the Dora9 curve is that it is with MW50. Please correct if wrong but isn't it only good for 10 second intervals?  That almost seems useless except in critical points of a fight where u may need that boost, but it is nowhere near the length of wep of 5 min or 10 min.

SO if you use the non-MW50 curve for the D9, we would see that the La7 is king under 10k in raw speed.  And again, your La7 curve will not match an La5n like verbatim.  It's my guess that the La7 will have a much greater angle in its speed curve up to 10k than you have there. But I see we are going nowhere until HT releases the bird and we see how it performs.  

I want it perked at about 100 points. That'll keep the general crowd away so you won't be seeing 100 La7's in the arena.


fscott

[juzz]

10 seconds??!! - it was 10 minute intervals, like the G-10 which also has MW 50.

"During the period April 1945 La7 serial No.452132-76 underwent production test trials at the NII-VVS. Below is some of the data from those tests." Original website here

 
 

[Nath-BDP]

Here is a link to the chart that verm posed but translated and rotated horizontally.
 http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/chrta.jpg

[Vermillion]

I choose to include the MW50 Dora, because that is what everyone seems to "think" is going to show up. I honestly don't know.

 

SO if you use the non-MW50 curve for the D9, we would see that the La7 is king under 10k in raw speed

Actually its only "king" under 6k, where the G10 takes over. The Pony takes over at 8k, and the F4U-1 series takes over at about 11k.

Even still, what is wrong with it being the fastest below 6k? That was its real life strength. Its huge weakness is speed/power at altitude.

Fights rarely start at 5k or less (not counting the vulch sessions we see), most start much higher, and the fight is pretty much decided before you get down to 5k less.

The Typhoon is currently in the same position being "king of the hill down low", has much better guns & visibility, plus it can carry external ord. Its not taking over the arena right now.

Don't get me wrong guys. I agree that the La7 will be a very potent fighter in the hands of a skilled E fighting pilot, just as it was in history. Strong, but with some very defineable weakness, that will most likely make the plane "unpopular" and not one everyone will rush to fly.

Its definitely not going to be some kind of mystical cross between a Chog & Spitfire with a 3400hp engine, thats the F2G SuperCorsair  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[lazs]

Don't even need an F2G... The -4 Corsair was quite common and outperformed all those planes in allmost every way.   380mph plus on the deck and 460 or so at 20k.  climb at 4000 + and turn as well or better than the 1D.   And... it takes off from carriers.
lazs

[Wisk-=VF-101=-]

The data for FW-190s in the table given by Nath seem pretty high. Are those tests of prototypes or production ACs ? Who ran those tests ? The manufacturer ? Some German research institute ? Did they also conduct measurements to create speed vs alt and climbrate vs alt charts ? What was the methodology for measuring the speeds (i.e did they do a shallow dive or what?)? Where was it described ? How meticulous was it and how many hours did they spend on it ?

When comparing any figures it is always important to know the process of how they were obtained - the difference in the process can render data from different sources completely uncomparable. For those interested (and those who can get access) the process used by NII VVS is described in:
"Lyetnye ispytaniya samolyetov" (Flight testing of aircraft) by Egorov B.I., internal publication of BNTI NKAP dept. of TsAGI, 1941 and revised in
"Rukovodstvo dlya konstruktorov" (Instructions for designers), vol. 2, 2nd edition, chapter 4000, Moscow BNTI TsAGI, 1944. The whole process for a particular AC took 92 flights (82-95 hours of flight time).
If anyone knows corresponding german documents, including data that are known to be produced by the described process, could you please let me know at least the title, author and who was it published by and when ?

Here are NII VVS data for production ACs (obtained by what they call "kontrol'ny" - "control" tests). They were verified by TsAGI research in 1994. TsAGI researchers claim they compared them against the trustworthy foreign sources, made sure the data correlate by correcting them if needed (e.g. data for 109F-4 were too low because it had a defect in the supercharger system that the test pilots didn't know about), so these are not data for some particular copy of an AC, this is what they arrived at as representative of the whole type; they also have charts but I don't have a scanner:

FW-190A8(light armament, with 2 20mm and 2 13mm):

Engine: BMW-801D: 1700hp at take-off, 1360hp
Take-off weight: 3986kg
Specific wing loading: 214 kgs/m^2
Power loading: 2.93 kgs/h.p.
Top speed: sea lvl - 522km/h (542 in combat mode)
           alt - 614km/h at 6150 (642 at 6500 in combat mode)
Time of climb to 5000m: 6.1min (5.4 in combat mode)
Time for 360 turn at 1000m: 21-22 sec
Gain of altitude in a combat turn: 1100m
Landing speed: 153km/h


FW190-D9:
Engine: Jumo-213A, 1780hp at take-off, 1480hp at alt (1600 in combat mode)
Take-off weight: 4197kg
Specific wing loading: 228 kgs/m^2
Specific power loading: 2.84kgs/h.p. (2.62 in combat mode)
Top speeds: sea lvl - 530km/h(543 in combat mode), at alt - 631km/h at 6150m (642 at 6100m)
Time of climb to 5000m: 5.6min
Time of 360 turn at 1000m: 22-23sec
Gain of altitude in a combat turn: 1000m
Landing speed: 158km/h

For comparison, here are data for the La-7 that were put through the same kind of tests with the same methodology and measuring instruments (i.e. NII VVS) and then verified by TsAGI in 1994; again this is "cumulative" data based on a number of "control" tests guided by the same process, not for some particular copy of the AC (at least as TsAGI authors claim).

La-7 (3 20mm version):
Engine: ASh-82FN, 1850h.p. at take-off, 1430h.p. at alt
Take-off weight: 3315kg
Specific wing loading: 189 kgs/m^2
Specific power loading: 2.32kg/h.p.
Top speeds: sea lvl - 579km/h (613 in combat mode), at alt - 661km/h at 6000m
Time of climb to 5000m: 5.25min (4.6 in combat mode)
Time of 360 turn at 1000m: 18-19secs
Gain of altitude in a combat turn: 1200m

Of course, AH folks have to make their own decisions about the performance, we can only help them by making data like these available. I do think that the upcoming "Il-2" game will use primarily the NII VVS data
as the soviet/russian engineering community has very strong confidence in them.



[This message has been edited by Wisk-=VF-101=- (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Fishu]

Ehm...  D9 flying as fast as 190A8?
and top speed being below 400mph?

I can't really believe on that one, since already 190A5 has top speed over 400mph.