Author Topic: Dow up 950+ points  (Read 837 times)

Offline Eagler

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 06:45:39 AM »
I think the "floor" will be determined by who is elected in Nov due to the vast differences in their economic policies

if the semi black robin hood wins, the floor will be much much lower than if the old guy pulls it out
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Offline Nwbie

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 09:03:23 AM »
whoever wins in November will have nothing to do with it, there is machinations in place already that will take 2 to 3 years to come to fruition. The next president is a lame duck when it comes to the economy.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 10:13:15 AM »
whoever wins in November will have nothing to do with it, there is machinations in place already that will take 2 to 3 years to come to fruition. The next president is a lame duck when it comes to the economy.


I think the level of socialism the winner incorporates into our economy will have an impact .. how can it not?

You don't think that if the tax rate is raised to 54%, that will not have an effect? You don't think the amount of money the winner prints for the future bailouts will not have an effect? How can it not?
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 10:30:40 AM »
whoever wins in November will have nothing to do with it, there is machinations in place already that will take 2 to 3 years to come to fruition. The next president is a lame duck when it comes to the economy.


that is far from correct.  If the new administration implements social programs that cause higher taxes, less return of capital will go to business.  Less capital means less investment and employment, and lower investment and employment continue the downward spiral of the market.

The new administration will have a huge effect on the economy based on the direction they take, socialism or capitalism.
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Offline Gixer

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 10:39:24 AM »
Amazing, what a great start. Maybe, just maybe, we are starting to turn around from the down turn.
WOOT!

Unfortunately not. And there is no quick fix injection coming up like last weekend, markets are going to drop all week. Could be we are a very long way from bottom yet.   :uhoh



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Offline humble

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2008, 01:10:30 PM »
that is far from correct.  If the new administration implements social programs that cause higher taxes, less return of capital will go to business.  Less capital means less investment and employment, and lower investment and employment continue the downward spiral of the market.

The new administration will have a huge effect on the economy based on the direction they take, socialism or capitalism.

This is not an accurate statement in and as of itself. Just as a single point lower taxes do not equate to greater capital investment in a particular country. The key underlying barometer is productivity. The primary cause for our current problems lies in the increase in debt and decrease in productivity. The tremendous corruption allowed in the "babybush" years is a major factor. As a microcosm we can use the Minerals Management Bureau, potentially a billion of $$$ stolen in royalties and all a direct result of the current administration. I'm a stone cold republican but the truth is "we" put a corrupt mental midget in office. The simple reality is that the global crisis is beyond the control of a single government and isn't really tied to the factors above. It's a banking crisis brought about by a fundamental shift in how banks value assets and manage risk. Basically they got in a game of 3 card monte with them selfs and all lost in the end.

Personally I think the "bailout" is simply going to magnify the problem in the end. The bottom line here in the US is that we dont have the underlying productivity or real wealth to carry the load we created. The simple fact is that our economy needs to find a solid footing that can only occur thru a fairly massive adjustment. If the governments of the world simply elect to print money to pump into the problem then we'll be in a global depression that makes the 30's look tame in a year or two..and wont recover for a decade or more. As it stands now will see a 2nd correction that will carry the market below the 7200-7500 floor regardless of who's elected. The real question is how badly things will go since this last best shot (which was truly a massive blunder) by the G7 has zero hope of true success. This isn't a US meltdown its a global one...

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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2008, 01:22:55 PM »
I absolutely agree that it is a global meltdown, but if there is no capital, there will be no growth.  This market is far from it's bottom, and the roller coaster is going to continue until the idiots around the world realize they can not print more money and get out of the situation.
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Offline humble

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2008, 01:52:16 PM »
The real problem was actually the availability of capital in the absence of productivity on a global scale. So a lot of "cheap money" has been squandered without any underlying gain in real assets.

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Offline kamilyun

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2008, 04:45:03 PM »
The real problem was actually the availability of capital in the absence of productivity on a global scale. So a lot of "cheap money" has been squandered without any underlying gain in real assets.

Does this essentially boil down to artificial inflation of assets?  People over-valuing assets (or paper) that were traded and bet on?

I'm left wondering after the last few days, what does a "price" represents.  The DOW has swung up and down 5%, 7%, 8%.  If you're holding 100 shares of BAC, how can that investment change so dramatically in minutes or hours?  When news spreads that another country is affected, how can their currency drop 10% overnight relative to the dollar?

It seems to me that we've moved to the point where "confidence in performance" is more important than "worth" (if that makes sense).  I mean a dollar isn't even worth a dollar, it's really just your confidence that you can buy something worth a dollar with it.

I said several years ago, I had no idea why someone would pay $350,000 for a vinyl-sided, cookie-cutter town house thrown up overnight in the middle of a cornfield.  Yet people did it. Some of my friends did it.  Now everyone, to some degree, will suffer because of this.  Is this how capitalism works?  The Adam Smith's invisible hand smacking all of us in our 401Ks?

Offline humble

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2008, 05:14:51 PM »
I posted a link elsewhere that was a great explanation (IMO) of the underlying problem. Basically all of the complex financial instruments have created a distrust of any type of "paper". This is compounded by monetary policy that created unrealistic values in many area's. The average value of a house here in the US is one, but we can look at another as well. For a few years now auto makers promoted "zero interest" loans and very favorable leases that flooded the market with cars that had overly high retail pricing (and residual lease values) but relatively low month to month costs...even made worse with "we take any trade". So some folks ratcheted up to a car or even a 3rd one while carrying paper from the earlier vehicle. Now the dealer has 1 or two used cars that wont move and a car that has no value while the guy making the payment is buried and paying on a car he cant get out of.

So yes, we have a lot of assets of all kinds that are overvalued, but also a misguided sense of expectations. We're not entitled to a smooth and bump free ride all the time, yet it appears we've lost perspective. Banks above everyone else. So while before banks took prudent risks and demanded reasonable returns over time recently they all wanted to be big players and "investment banks". So the "WAMU's" of the world ended up on the working end of a chainsaw and IMO pushed a lot of bad options to homeowners by making "bad loans" attractive and good loans overly expensive or impossible to qualify for (this applies in a lot of area's).

The real problem we have is a ton of "bad paper" that will eat up cash reserves at any bank with "poison paper" as well as a lot of municipalities and companies who have assets at risk. The real risk is that the "bail out" will simply make some entities who caused the problem reasonably whole while making the institution who bought the paper insolvent.

As an example, you go buy a used car and its a lemon. It turns out that millions of people bought lemons that don't work at all and people can't get to work. So the government steps in to rescue things. After careful consideration they determine that millions of Americans owe billions of dollars on cars that don't work, so they aren't making the payments. This is an economic crisis, so they decide to spend billions to buy up the bad notes so car makers can afford to loan you money for a car that works :aok

It doesn't matter that you spent your DP money on the clunker on the driveway or that the car auto maker now wants to sell you the same refurbished clunker (hey its what we've got).

So...

The end result is the people who created the problem have cash back and the people who got hosed now have a lemon in the driveway and a larger debt to pay taxes on and no good answer on how to get a car that works.

Don't know if that makes sense or not to all of you, but IMO what "we" did was create a scenario where the disconnect between the man in the street (or literally on it for some) and the various governments is so complete that as we continue to melt down a total lack of faith will occur. Basically the government is ignoring "us" and sold out to the special interest groups. I'm not saying that the bail out was wrong or not needed....but its going to the wrong people. The 1st thing AIG did was go play golf.

Now if you took the "stalin" approach by 1st arresting the CEO and board of directors and then giving the firm money with the clear understanding that if they don't turn it around in 90 days you'll be back to arrest them to.

Where this went south is when we didn't arrest the heads of Bear Sterns...so now this is a global good old boys club and the global middle class is going to get absolutely crushed...and I mean dead flat stomped on.

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Offline Hangtime

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2008, 05:25:00 PM »
Thanks Humble.. that wasn't wasted. Good overview; lately I've had a hard time conceptualizing the malaise.. and wind up just getting the burger with ketchup and mayonasie.

Whats the end game look like.. we gonna go all the way to pencils and apples style depression or do we all just slip a rung or two on the ladder.. middle class to lower middle, lower middle to poverty, etc?

 
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Offline Gixer

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2008, 06:49:07 PM »
The Bail Out wasn't wrong, it was just six months too late. The worlds free markets had already fallen over into the abyss. Now they are looking at trillions of dollars globally to inject into the banks to free up credit. Won't work, especially now with the world nose diving into a deep recession, and from all the signs it looks more like a looming depression.

Giving the banks 700 billion now is like giving a drug addict morphine, soon as the hit is over he wants more. There simply isn't anything more from last weelend hence from this week we will see the markets dive with no economic news on the horizon to improve the situation.

Yes you can blame the banks,wallstreet and greed. But it's up to government to set monetary policy and regulation. Clinton started the path of easing monetary policy and deregulating banks to start creating the credit environment as it's been for the last 12 years or so. Bush made it 10 times worse by deregulating even further,tax cuts,racking up 10 trillion + in debt and being asleep at the switch as the signs started to surface of a credit crisis.


"They have waited until something has cracked and then at the last moment have sought to prevent total collapse."

Franklin D Roosevelt 1932.



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Offline Eagler

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2008, 07:05:00 PM »
humble
I agree with all that but the next potus will make a difference in how fast our country sinks depending on the agreed level of socialism that is enacted in 09 and beyond. The sad fact is I think the average joe will swallow every drop of socialism as long as he keeps his cable, hd tv and high speed internet ... seems many have become a bunch of greedy selfish bastards who deserve what they vote in...

Gixer
i can't believe anyone in DC did not see this train wreck coming, no one was asleep at the wheel. It is just like every POTUS before, the bad is just put off by whatever means so that the dump happens on the next saps watch
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 07:08:29 PM by Eagler »
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Offline Gixer

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Re: Dow up 950+ points
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2008, 07:28:21 PM »
Gixer
i can't believe anyone in DC did not see this train wreck coming, no one was asleep at the wheel. It is just like every POTUS before, the bad is just put off by whatever means so that the dump happens on the next saps watch

Yes and you know what's the most concerning lesson from history on all of this. Is that the mobilisation for WW2 and the factory,employment opportunities it created accomplished what government economic reform programmes could not.

By contrast today, the current military conflict with the war on terror only compounds the economic problems. The expenditure of 100s billions of dollars drains resources that could be spent on the domestic economy, imposing a tax burden and now with a massive bail out on top restricts disposable income. It's all well and good to give tax cuts but at some point the bill has to be paid with interest. Why national debt is now over 10 trillion.

That's why I say nothing less than a radical restructuring of the global economy from the grassroots up will fix today's mess. And hopefully at the end of it, US military power and economy will still be on top.


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