Automobile magazine says of the new Camaro...

[CAP1]

Well it's just easier to make a Cobra fast than a Camaro/Vette.  no, no it's not. you can slap headers, cam, intake, injectors, and a plethora of other bolt ons onto ANY v8, and make them faster.

Doesn't matter how the power is made, RWHP is RWHP (well N/A is the best power, but I have yet to see an advantage on the street, mine is practically instant boost at any RPM with the Eaton).  But the bigger engine is certainly the way to go, just sucks you have to build it if you want any decent amount of boost.bigger is better.......on the track. on the street, it can be, but all in all, todays smallblock chevys, and the yblock fords can produce ungodl amounts of horsepower reliably, and more effeciently.

You gotta give props to the Cobra though.  The 5.4L would be awesome if the GT500 didn't weigh 3920 lbs.  A 600 RWHP Cobra is about even with a ~680 RWHP GT500 from my experience, that's terrible - and a ~500 RWHP C6 Z06 is right there with them    I love the Z's.  I wish Ford would make some big power / displacement N/A engines.

i'd be more inclined to give it props had ford kept it affordable for the masses. that's what the stang was originally intended for. a good pony car for the masses.

[CAP1]

Much as I dislike  Fords  .. if they put the new stang on a serious diet so the motor could pull it, they'd rock.

I couldnt beleive when I first heard that the new stang weighed so much .. it's not a big car, must be that Ford engineering.
just outta curiousity......why exactly DO you hate fords?
As for the ease of makin the LS-1 faster . .er .. bolt on a procharger.
Instant 600hp.. or so .. depending on how fast you want to turn the pully.

Or a lotta people just do heads/cam ..500hp.although this is the way i'd go..in fact i did with my 89.....most would simply bolt on a nitrous kit. personally, i don;t like nitrous, but to each his own i guess...

Then there's the guys that do twin turbo ..1000hp or more for the killer setups.
It's easy to do .. all it takes is money

Or .. you can buy the new LS based 454 motor ..bolt in 600hp.. usin a single 4-barrel no less.
Then bolt on the procharger.. or twin turbo *that* beast.for the street? why a carb? FI although a bit harder to set up, works a lot better.

I know I know .. you can get an aluminum SOHC motor for the Ford ..but at that stage, wouldn't we all rather just get a Keith Black Blown Hemi motor and have at it? -evil grin-uumm.ain't it kinda nuts comparin these two?
ford dropped the ball BIG TIME when they didn't capatilize on the potential of the 4.6. these blocks can handle over 700hp in stock form. the basic design looks like a modernized, shrunken down 427  SOHC. oo...and with a much better timing chain setup.


-GE aka Frank

[Bronk]

Much as I dislike  Fords 

I'll never understand this, never. Each car company has their shining jewel and each has their pile-o-poop.  I guess it's just human nature to herd, bunch a fan bois.

Not singling you out GE, the statement just irks me. Could have been "Much as I dislike Chevys.".

For the record I now own.
00 Dakota R/T
03 Focus SVT
68 GTO

If a car has a bit of that "something" I'll like it. If not it's just transportation.

I return you now to the fanboi car fest.

[CAP1]

I'll never understand this, never. Each car company has their shining jewel and each has their pile-o-poop.  I guess it's just human nature to herd, bunch a fan bois.

Not singling you out GE, the statement just irks me. Could have been "Much as I dislike Chevys.".

For the record I now own.
00 Dakota R/T
03 Focus SVT
68 GTO

If a car has a bit of that "something" I'll like it. If not it's just transportation.

I return you now to the fanboi car fest.

good point.

97 dakota sport(318 5 spd)
78 fairmont futura(5.0L FI 5 spd)
93 geo prism
95 ford taurus

till the dakota, i've almost always owned chevy trucks. fav. was my 70 with the 400 small block.

[Bronk]

Forgot to add something.
I'd like for all of these car companies to offer a real base model once again.
No air
No power seats
no power windows
no power mirrors
ect
ect
ect

IIRC Ford in 89 offerd the LX notch back in such a fashion. You could option out for the 3.73 gears. It was faster and handled better than the top dollar GT, for under 10k.

Would I buy a new Camaro in the above option? Hell yes, It'd be one hell of a ride.

[sluggish]

I'll never understand this, never. Each car company has their shining jewel and each has their pile-o-poop.  I guess it's just human nature to herd, bunch a fan bois.

Not singling you out GE, the statement just irks me. Could have been "Much as I dislike Chevys.".

For the record I now own.
00 Dakota R/T
03 Focus SVT
68 GTO

If a car has a bit of that "something" I'll like it. If not it's just transportation.

I return you now to the fanboi car fest.

My father, grandfather and great grandfather worked for GM.  We never even really looked at the other two of the big three.  Back in 88 when my dad bought an Escort (for fuel economy) the guys he worked with gave him a really hard time.  Now when you drive through (what's left of) the parking lots, it's nothing to see many foreign cars as well as Fords and Chryslers.

Even though the Camaro is a knock off of the Mustang, it has taken on a personality of its own.  My favorites would be the 67 - 68.  I have grown to appreciate the stang over the years.  I think my favorite would be the 68 - 69 Mach I with the heavily sloped rear window.

[Grayeagle]

I dislike Ford's for several reasons and I will never own another one.

How many bolts used to attach a water pump to a 289?
Yes.. it PISSED me OFF when I changed the water pump on our '67 Mustang,
..not only do you have to take the radiator out, you have to find every stinking one of the 17 frik-kin bolts that FORD decided was necessary to hold a frik-kin water pump on.

Just for laffs.. how many bolts on a Mopar B or RB motor (typical 383 or 440 ..or Hemi for that matter)?
4. Count 'em. Takes about 5 minutes if you're slow.
Little plate that comes out of the water pump housing that holds the bearing, the shaft for the pulley, and that's it. Amazingly simple and works.

How many on your typical small block chebby (and big block for that matter?)
4 again. All that. It's a bigger peice than the Mopar, still not bad tho.

What ever happened to Henry's premise of keeping it as simple as possible?
Well .. apparantly they hired some 'engineer's' who got about as far away as they could from that premise.

Then there's Ford's penchant for making a real nice motor ..for .. ohh .. a year.
Sometimes two.

Good luck finding a Boss anything in a junkyard to play with.
May as well label most of Fords 'better ideas' in engines as unobtainium, because you will rarely get the chance to play with one .. unlike the 750 thousand 440's out there that Mopar made, or the gazillion small block/big block chebbies that run as good or better than anything Ford ever made.

Yes, their new stang motor is 'ok' .. to me it's a shame they didn't take a page from the Boss Mustang
and offer the big motor fire-breather
 ..if any remember them, they had lousy low end torque,
you never ..EVER ..stepped on the gas unless the car was straight
..it would get so sideways so fast it was scary when it came on the cam
.. they were 'radical' right off the showroom floor.
Lumpy idling, no traction, big balls scary fast, needed BIG sticky tires ..stock.

I had a friend who had a Boss 302 Mustang,
bought it new and he used to run down the lines of orange cones
just to piss off the street worker types, and loved doin it sideways.

Years later met someone who had restored his Boss 429 Mustang.
First road trip, his wife was drivin while he slept,
she pulled out to pass a Semi and lost it completely,
it ended up into the trees, they both lived, the car was destroyed.
He was looking for a nice '65 hatchback to put the drivetrain in.

Then there's the Cleveland 351, arguably the best 'small block' ever made
..until the LS motors of chebby.
Good luck finding one of those. Not quite as rare as a boss motor,
..but in all the years I worked in speedshops building and tuning motors
..I never worked on one. Rare to see one even when they were 'new'

I dislike Fords. They suck in too many ways for me to waste any time on.
Had a guy come into the speed shop I used to work in long ago
.. asks me how to make his '65 Mustang go fast.
I told him ..go to a junkyard, find any Chebby with a 396 in it,
and stuff that into you're mustang ..it will go fast.
He did.
It did.

Told another guy the same thing about his '67 Firebird.
We did the big port, tunnel-ram 396, pump gas runnin motor, 4-gear, 4:88's in the back
..people just scratchin their heads lookin at the '350' badges on the hood,
right where the tunnel stuck out.
No one made a tunnel ram for the 350 Pontiac motor.
He useda tell people he carved the tunnel ram out of a block of aluminum.
I'm talkin gullible.
That other guy with the Boss 429? .. ya ..the firebird showed him the way home more than once.
That tunnel ram 396 cost $1500 to build up, including the cost of the motor from the junkyard.
(this was 1976-1977, SoCal)

Yes .. you can call me 'fanbois' for what I have learned over decades of actually doing that whole 'car' thing,
I still dislike Fords. I still will never own one.
I still beleive they are a complete waste of time/money to get involved in.
(unless you are a collector, and buy a car just to park it)

Since we are posting 'lists' of cars we have owned
..let me see if I can remember all of them off the top of my head..
..starting with my first and not counting motorcycles
or cars I bought then sold in a week (happens now an then)

'55 Chebby 2-door post (cost me $25, in 1965, freshman high school year)
'59 Chebby Biscayne 4-door (party car..carry a case of beer in the trunk easy
'60 Chebby 2-door Impala (my first cam change, a 327 car with 4:11's)
'60 VW Bug convertible. (last year of high school)
'67 Hemi GTX 4-gear car (first car I ever bought that cost over 200 dollars, HS grad present to me by me)
'63 Ford Galaxie 500 convertible, 390 motor (traded in GTX for it, I was young and stupid)
'67 289 Mustang (my last Ford ..ever)
'69 383 Road Runner, 4-gear (9 years we owned it ..a nice running car..ended with 426 wedge in it)
'64 SS Malibu, L-88 427, tunnel-rammed crazy fast car, my first 'project' car
'62 Nova wagon (cost me $100, just a cheap run around car
'68 Dodge Coronet R/T 440 powered .. cost me $250, the guy just wanted to get rid of it..ran fine.
'71 Duster 440 six-pac, then tunnel rammed ..my 2nd project car, too much fun, never broke.
'70 Dart Swinger 340 Scat Pac ..fun little 13 second 'family car'
'69 Chebby half ton pickup (ever cam/carb up a 250 six banger? ..they run 'well'
'75 Chebby half ton surfer van, flares, custom paint, shag carpet, killer stereo, excellent tow vehicle.
'67 GTX 'project car' ..never finished it, tube framed it, motor setback 13", dana set forward 5"
'87 CRX Honda, first car I ever bought right off the show room floor. A go-cart
'75 3/4 ton van, ex-ambulance ..dana rear, a tank ..would tow anything.
'88 Civic hatchback, life test unit ..put 187k miles on it, it broke a rod (!!) ..mechanical defect Honda said.
Suzuki Swift ..I dont remember the year, paid 200 for it.. just transportation, itty bitty car.
'90 Grand Am, lil overhead cam 4-banger hi revvin motor
'88 Bonneville, nice for a V-6 cruiser
'96 Z-28 ..second car I had ever bought right off showroom, beautiful, fast. Sucked in the snow.
'98 Durango RED ..first autotrader purchase, brand new, 20k less than local dealer wanted!!
'00 360 Durango, 3.91 gears, 4wd, alla bells an whistles. first 4wd vehicle. 4wd Lo gear meant really..really low.
'98 Vette Z-51 coupe. Top of the line for '98, the C5 Z06 didn't come out till couple years later.

-Frank aka GE

[clerick]

I dislike Ford's for several reasons and I will never own another one.

-Frank aka GE

Wow! So you hate Ford because of what they did 30+ years ago?  Nevermind that the 302 from the late 80's and on were excellent performance platforms as are the 4.6's.  Its that sort of ignorance that makes me laugh.  I do agree that Ford has dropped the ball on occasion or refused to run with some of their fantastic ideas but to hate them? If you wanted to play that game it would be just as easy to criticize GM for producing mediocre cars and covering up for it by putting a Z## badge on it just to make it look sporty. Or dropping a powerful motor into a car and neglecting brakes, suspension and especially ergonomics.  Not one single car company has ever hit a home run with every car they release.

This level of willful ignorance is simply mind blowing.

[Bronk]

LOL GE change a starter solenoid  on a bran c  or drop in a distributer. They all have their little idiosyncrasies.

[Grayeagle]

ROFL Clerik

I didn't say I hate Fords.

Your definition of 'ignorance' is interesting.
Is english your second language? .. or perhaps you don't understand what the word actually refers to?

Or .. a better guess .. you dislike that I dont like Fords and can't express yourself accurately so you just barrage text to annoy and irritate.

As for what Ford has done 30 years ago ..up to today ..it's all the same.
They suck at 'engineering' in so many ways it's a complete waste of my time to get involved with another one.

But ..that's just me.
I'm sure if you spend enough time and money you can have a lot of fun with one.
Good luck with that.

First On Race Day
(first to break, first to be back on the trailer, first to go home .. the usual
-poke- the Ford fanbois

-GE

[Grayeagle]

Bronk .. yassir .. change a head gasket on a Caddy Northstar ..plan a weekend around it and even then, that whole motor is just a mess to work on.

Talk about being engineered for the flat rate manual .. it takes hours just to get to see the head gasket.

Some real surprises now and then that make you stop and scratch your head wondering what the heck were they thinking.

Clerick ..as for cars of the '80's .. I'll take none. Not one.
Even the corvette was crap.
Pretty sad when a 10-15 year old beater blowin oil past the valves would just blow the doors off a new car,
..I mean make it look *silly*

Yes.. that was the '80's.

-GE aka Frank

[Bronk]

Bronk .. yassir .. change a head gasket on a Caddy Northstar ..plan a weekend around it and even then, that whole motor is just a mess to work on.

Talk about being engineered for the flat rate manual .. it takes hours just to get to see the head gasket.

Some real surprises now and then that make you stop and scratch your head wondering what the heck were they thinking.

Clerick ..as for cars of the '80's .. I'll take none. Not one.
Even the corvette was crap.
Pretty sad when a 10-15 year old beater blowin oil past the valves would just blow the doors off a new car,
..I mean make it look *silly*

Yes.. that was the '80's.

-GE aka Frank

Agreed sir and that was my original point. They all have gems and they all have poop. Picking out the gems is whats important.
As for you 80's comment there were a few.  GNX, LX 5.0's 5.7 fbodies.  Now your mid/late 70's you can keep omg, they all were vanilla.

[clerick]

ROFL Clerik

I didn't say I hate Fords.

Your definition of 'ignorance' is interesting.
Is english your second language? .. or perhaps you don't understand what the word actually refers to?

Or .. a better guess .. you dislike that I dont like Fords and can't express yourself accurately so you just barrage text to annoy and irritate.

As for what Ford has done 30 years ago ..up to today ..it's all the same.
They suck at 'engineering' in so many ways it's a complete waste of my time to get involved with another one.

But ..that's just me.
I'm sure if you spend enough time and money you can have a lot of fun with one.
Good luck with that.

First On Race Day
(first to break, first to be back on the trailer, first to go home .. the usual
-poke- the Ford fanbois

-GE

Ok, you dislike not hate.  Though your tirade would suggest that you have understated your disdain for the brand.

Please, educate me as to how I misused the word "ignorance."

As for you not liking Ford, i don't really care what people do or don't like.  What i can't stand are people who take a side then defend their point of view to absurdity. Ignoring reason and fact out of sheer stubbornness. The whole Ford versus Chevy thing is stupid, whats worse are the people that actually think that one brand is absolutely superior over the other.

The eary 70's to the mid 80's were indeed a blight on American motoring, with the exception of the European cars that made it over here.

"I still dislike Fords. I still will never own one. I still believe they are a complete waste of time/money to get involved in."  Brilliant! You even go as far as to dismiss, out of hand, future cars that haven't even been conceived yet.  With this kind of foresight you must be making billions in the stock market. Right?

[CAP1]

My father, grandfather and great grandfather worked for GM.  We never even really looked at the other two of the big three.  Back in 88 when my dad bought an Escort (for fuel economy) the guys he worked with gave him a really hard time.  Now when you drive through (what's left of) the parking lots, it's nothing to see many foreign cars as well as Fords and Chryslers.

Even though the Camaro is a knock off of the Mustang, it has taken on a personality of its own.  My favorites would be the 67 - 68.  I have grown to appreciate the stang over the years.  I think my favorite would be the 68 - 69 Mach I with the heavily sloped rear window.

the 67-69 camaros were tuely the best looking camaros built.

best looking mustangs i think were the 67-68 fastbacks, closley followed by the same year coupes. i almost bought a rustfree 67 last month........but thought better of it as i need a tow truck for the shop.

[CAP1]

I dislike Ford's for several reasons and I will never own another one.

How many bolts used to attach a water pump to a 289?
Yes.. it PISSED me OFF when I changed the water pump on our '67 Mustang,
..not only do you have to take the radiator out, you have to find every stinking one of the 17 frik-kin bolts that FORD decided was necessary to hold a frik-kin water pump on.yes, i agree that is annoying......but i've never had to pull the radiator to get em out. I do em in less than an hour on the 60's cars....just over that on the fox bodied stangs

Just for laffs.. how many bolts on a Mopar B or RB motor (typical 383 or 440 ..or Hemi for that matter)?
4. Count 'em. Takes about 5 minutes if you're slow.
Little plate that comes out of the water pump housing that holds the bearing, the shaft for the pulley, and that's it. Amazingly simple and works.

How many on your typical small block chebby (and big block for that matter?)
4 again. All that. It's a bigger peice than the Mopar, still not bad tho.
on the older chevys that was my vfavorite thing. their engineers weren't as good as fords though. they only added 2 more. the last buick waterpump i did(buick roadmaster with a chevy 350) had one bolt added to each side. then they placed a couple extra brackets on there that had to come off first. THAT pissed me off....and i used to crack about them hiring ford engineers to do that
What ever happened to Henry's premise of keeping it as simple as possible?
Well .. apparantly they hired some 'engineer's' who got about as far away as they could from that premise.you answered your own question

Then there's Ford's penchant for making a real nice motor ..for .. ohh .. a year.
Sometimes two. you don't think the 289 was a good motor? before you answer that, remember a 302 was nothing more than a stroked 289, and a 289 was a bored 260. essentially, the ford smallblock has been around doing well for over 40 years. they're good, reliable, and can make decent power for a smalblock.

Good luck finding a Boss anything in a junkyard to play with.i have a 70 boss302 engine in my garage. wanna buy it?
May as well label most of Fords 'better ideas' in engines as unobtainium, because you will rarely get the chance to play with one .. unlike the 750 thousand 440's out there that Mopar made, or the gazillion small block/big block chebbies that run as good or better than anything Ford ever made.

Yes, their new stang motor is 'ok' .. to me it's a shame they didn't take a page from the Boss Mustang
and offer the big motor fire-breather
 ..if any remember them, they had lousy low end torque,
you never ..EVER ..stepped on the gas unless the car was straight
..it would get so sideways so fast it was scary when it came on the cam
.. they were 'radical' right off the showroom floor.
Lumpy idling, no traction, big balls scary fast, needed BIG sticky tires ..stock.

I had a friend who had a Boss 302 Mustang,
bought it new and he used to run down the lines of orange cones
just to piss off the street worker types, and loved doin it sideways.

Years later met someone who had restored his Boss 429 Mustang.
First road trip, his wife was drivin while he slept,
she pulled out to pass a Semi and lost it completely,
it ended up into the trees, they both lived, the car was destroyed.
He was looking for a nice '65 hatchback to put the drivetrain in.

Then there's the Cleveland 351, arguably the best 'small block' ever made i'm not sure the clevlend is considered a smallblock. the 351W is a smallblock, but i thoguht the C was considered an FE block. but again, the 351W was a decent engine. the 351M sucked, big time
..until the LS motors of chebby.
Good luck finding one of those. Not quite as rare as a boss motor,
..but in all the years I worked in speedshops building and tuning motors
..I never worked on one. Rare to see one even when they were 'new'

I dislike Fords. They suck in too many ways for me to waste any time on.
Had a guy come into the speed shop I used to work in long ago
.. asks me how to make his '65 Mustang go fast.
I told him ..go to a junkyard, find any Chebby with a 396 in it, one of the 351's woulda gone in there easier....or leave the 289, and work the snot outta it.
and stuff that into you're mustang ..it will go fast.
He did.
It did.

Told another guy the same thing about his '67 Firebird.
We did the big port, tunnel-ram 396, pump gas runnin motor, 4-gear, 4:88's in the back
..people just scratchin their heads lookin at the '350' badges on the hood,
right where the tunnel stuck out.
No one made a tunnel ram for the 350 Pontiac motor.
He useda tell people he carved the tunnel ram out of a block of aluminum.
I'm talkin gullible.
That other guy with the Boss 429? .. ya ..the firebird showed him the way home more than once.
That tunnel ram 396 cost $1500 to build up, including the cost of the motor from the junkyard.
(this was 1976-1977, SoCal)boss429's were pigs. they served  no purpose other than letting ford run them on the nascar tracks.

Yes .. you can call me 'fanbois' for what I have learned over decades of actually doing that whole 'car' thing,
I still dislike Fords. I still will never own one.
I still beleive they are a complete waste of time/money to get involved in.
(unless you are a collector, and buy a car just to park it)

Since we are posting 'lists' of cars we have owned my list is currently owned
..let me see if I can remember all of them off the top of my head..
..starting with my first and not counting motorcycles
or cars I bought then sold in a week (happens now an then)

'55 Chebby 2-door post (cost me $25, in 1965, freshman high school year)
'59 Chebby Biscayne 4-door (party car..carry a case of beer in the trunk easy
'60 Chebby 2-door Impala (my first cam change, a 327 car with 4:11's)
'60 VW Bug convertible. (last year of high school)
'67 Hemi GTX 4-gear car (first car I ever bought that cost over 200 dollars, HS grad present to me by me)
'63 Ford Galaxie 500 convertible, 390 motor (traded in GTX for it, I was young and stupid)
'67 289 Mustang (my last Ford ..ever)
'69 383 Road Runner, 4-gear (9 years we owned it ..a nice running car..ended with 426 wedge in it)
'64 SS Malibu, L-88 427, tunnel-rammed crazy fast car, my first 'project' car
'62 Nova wagon (cost me $100, just a cheap run around car
'68 Dodge Coronet R/T 440 powered .. cost me $250, the guy just wanted to get rid of it..ran fine.
'71 Duster 440 six-pac, then tunnel rammed ..my 2nd project car, too much fun, never broke.
'70 Dart Swinger 340 Scat Pac ..fun little 13 second 'family car'
'69 Chebby half ton pickup (ever cam/carb up a 250 six banger? ..they run 'well'
'75 Chebby half ton surfer van, flares, custom paint, shag carpet, killer stereo, excellent tow vehicle.
'67 GTX 'project car' ..never finished it, tube framed it, motor setback 13", dana set forward 5"
'87 CRX Honda, first car I ever bought right off the show room floor. A go-cart
'75 3/4 ton van, ex-ambulance ..dana rear, a tank ..would tow anything.
'88 Civic hatchback, life test unit ..put 187k miles on it, it broke a rod (!!) ..mechanical defect Honda said.
Suzuki Swift ..I dont remember the year, paid 200 for it.. just transportation, itty bitty car.
'90 Grand Am, lil overhead cam 4-banger hi revvin motor
'88 Bonneville, nice for a V-6 cruiser
'96 Z-28 ..second car I had ever bought right off showroom, beautiful, fast. Sucked in the snow.
'98 Durango RED ..first autotrader purchase, brand new, 20k less than local dealer wanted!!
'00 360 Durango, 3.91 gears, 4wd, alla bells an whistles. first 4wd vehicle. 4wd Lo gear meant really..really low.
'98 Vette Z-51 coupe. Top of the line for '98, the C5 Z06 didn't come out till couple years later.

-Frank aka GE

on your fanbois comment....i wasn't calling you that, and wasn't insuinating that. i was simply curious why you seemed to actually hate one particular make. i used to hate chevys and mopars when i was young and stupid. now i realize that anything can be made to go fast, and fairly easily. my preference is fords, but i like anything pretty much with a v8 rumblle, and lots of power. i've owned fords, dodges, and chevys. i don't let any of em piss me off if i can help it...and i can. i'm VERY good at controlling my temper.