32 plane limit? (and other anomolies)

[CavemanJ]

Yesterday's tribute to Sn1p3r and films/shots taken show a few anomolies in the AH engine.  I mean no disrespect in using shots from the tribute, they are merely the best examples available.

32 plane/vehicle/character limit?
There were 9 F4U-1Cs and 7 Panzers on the east side of the runway, and 15 pilots standing on the west side, during the tribute flybys (total = 31 entities). (Some pilots arrived in the parade line just after the 4 F4Us of the ME flyby group launched).

StSanta posted some shots from his squad's flyby here:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/008128.html

Here's a shot from my film of the tribute, showing all the F4Us lined up.  You can compare it directly to the second shot posted by StSanta.
 

StSanta's third posted shot shows the area where the tanks were parked, but you see no tanks.  They were between the 2 northern most taxiways on the east side of the base.

 
Another shot from my film, matching the persepctive of StSanta's third shot as closely as possible.  The tanks can be seen here.

During the flyby I saw only two aircraft, and they were in 2 different flights.  All other aircraft doing flybys remained as 'distance dots' that warped by.  Review of my film of the event shows 1 icon per flight passing for review, with the other 3 aircraft of each flight remaining as 'distance dots'.

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Other anomolies:
It seems when frame rates drop below a certain point, and/or if there are more than X number of entities in an area, you see the direction a person is looking, not the direction thier vehicle is pointing.  I watched all 9 F4Us taxi around and park with thier props to the runway.  In the screenshots (mine and Santas) you can them pointed in differing directions.  Perhaps this could account for some of the weirdness that happens in large furballs.

[Jimdandy]

That would also explain the black dots that never turn into full aircraft and the ghost dog fights I've seen on the deck and never do reach, like there in another dimension. I wonder what would cause that in the program.

[Dinger]

Welcome to the world of MMP gaming.  The problem is fitting all that A/C data into a 28.8 connection; what AH does is provide detailed information on aircraft (or tanks, PT boats, chutes) within 8000 yards of your plane; after 8000 yards it sends less frequent updates of very approximate information (dots).  The bandwidth for detailed info is limited, and when it maxes out, it treats all other A/C as dots.
It's obviously doing other stuff, as we saw with the "cristalling" honor guard (I don't think it was which way the pilots were looking -- more likely it's something with say the smoothing code).

[Westy]

 The 32 limit of Aw/Wb's or where ever is a bandwidth limit on the positional data from the host to you. Obviuosly you're getting the positional data, be they dots or full plane form it doesn't really matter.

 I remember HiTech saying once there was no limit here. Maybe that changed since, I do not know. I remember many moons ago the tribute given to one AH guys who lost his infant son and I counted over 50 some odd aircraft in my vacinity. A mix of dots, more complex plane shapes and then full shapes with icons for the closest aircraft. It made me look forward to AH scenarios as we would be less lilely to se cloaking/decloaking of objects due to the onbect limit imposed by the host->client bandwidth considerations.

 It may be that now the program renders more planes as dots to save FPS on peoples machines so that your FE shows the close aircraft at full plane shape but the rest that are further from you as dots, untill they get closer?  

 As for ghost dots? Thats usually a lag/connection issue. On who's part I'm not sure. Host to a disconnected entity I guess. I've never seen a ghost dogfight before but I have chased some ghost dots many times.

  -Westy

[RAM]

Same problem here, and very noticeable. I was part of the infantry honor guard, and when the planes on the strip took off, I suddenly saw a lot more chute incons that I had seen before, clearly indicating that when one guys' icon dissapears, other's takes its place.

I didnt see the fly-by, I only saw a bunch of dots flying over us.  

[Jimdandy]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess there is just so much room in the data packet it sounds like. Which is obvious when you say it but I didn't think of that. I haven't seen anything yet that I thought was a major game play issue. It sounds like these things are showing the limits of the internet. There is no way to avoid that. Well have to live with them on any game tell they get the thing up to speed. That makes me really wonder about a game like WWII OL. Thx again.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-18-2001).]

[Westy]

"There is no way to avoid that. Well have to live with them on any game tell they get the thing up to speed."

 It'll get better as more people get broadband service then the average users "pipe" will be bigger, allowing for more info to be echanged with the hosts.

"That makes me really wonder about a game like WWII OL."

 Bingo! You hit the nail on the head in the number one achilles heal (imo) of any game trying to fit that many people (1k) into an arena. No matter what size the arena is. People will still congregate where the "numbers" are on any map and I can gurante there will be many times there will be more than 64 near you.

 It's been a major hassle in any scenario I've ever particpated in over the last 4 years too and that has only been about 300 tops in the biggest.

 -Westy

[CavemanJ]

Dinger I'm aware of the problems of MMPGing.  What I'm wondering are why details like which direction a bandit/friendly aircraft is looking being sent to my FE?  I dinnae care which way he's looking, I want to know which way he's flying and how he's manuevering.

Westy I remember that 'cano dive, and all the aircraft that could be seen.  The difference here may be that the 'cano dive was centered over that huge crater in the center of the beta map which the tribute was at an airfield with all of its polygons.

[Dinger]

'cos, as I said above cave, it's not where they're looking.  Check it out again.  The planes align like crystals -- it's some artefact of the smoothing code that kicks up with stationary objects and 32 planes.  If you've ever followed a bomber and watch it warp, it turns around flies backwards then turns back the way it was facing before -- our FE has just received two packets backwards, and has smoothed it by showing a change in the bomber's facing.  That's the same thing happening here.  I'm guessing that to speed things up, separate info on the planes' headings is chucked out, and the smoothing code makes the planes face according to the direction it thinks the plane is moving in.

But the answer is, who knows?  IT ain't views though.  There's no reason why that information would even be transmitted from a client to the server in the first place.