RL example of Lag roll + E-fight!

[Dawger]

Some folks say that it's the pilot not the plane. To me that's BS, no matter how good a pilot is, when he goes up vs another pilot with equal skill that flys a better plane.

There is a serious error in rational thinking here.

If pilots are equal in skill then (and only then) the plane makes the difference.

Not to mention the spelling.

[Anaxogoras]

There is a serious error in rational thinking here.

If pilots are equal in skill then (and only then) the plane makes the difference.

Not to mention the spelling.

The only error in rational thinking here is your straw-man.  His point was the same as yours, just poorly expressed.

[Yeager]

What would be interesting would be to take four good 51B sticks and have them work in historical two plane elements led by a flight leader and then to have four good 109 sticks (not sure which 109 would be the best here) using historical german tactics and put them up at 30K and have them all go at it.  Go for the kill!

[Motherland]

What would be interesting would be to take four good 51B sticks and have them work in historical two plane elements led by a flight leader and then to have four good 109 sticks (not sure which 109 would be the best here) using historical german tactics and put them up at 30K and have them all go at it.  Go for the kill!

A more accurate way to do it would be to take 4 good pony sticks, one good 109 stick and 3 guys who can kinda stay in formation if they try hard enough.
Put the Pony sticks in P51B's and the rest in Bf 109G-6's (not sure exactly what time period the above dogfight took place but the G-6 was in pretty widespread use from mid-1943 on).

[TequilaChaser]

I think it is futile to compare pilots who flew in WWII and the way they performed their tactics

to people who play flight sims, even very accurately modeled with the best data to be known of........

How many hours of flying / dog fighting did an American, British, German, Australian, Finland, French, Russian, Japanese, etc WWII pilot have to actually be able to truly learn every in and out of his assigned fighter?

now compare that to the thousands and thousands of Flight sim hours some players have of the same aircraft.......

the only other thing would be, if the flight sim pilot of multi thousands of hours of practice was man enough to lay it on the line......

if he was I would take him over any WWII fighter pilot.........

we always see posts that planes in This flightsim or that flightsim are uber or do things that was imossible in real life....well seriously people........ those beloved WWII fighter pilots that fought for our ancestors freedom ( regardless of which country ) only had lets say 1/64th of the seat time in their planes compared to a flightsimmer who has flown  flightsims ( WWII flight sims ) for 15 to 20 years........

I am not disrespecting any WWII Veteran, God love em and thank you.....but just think about it!!!!

and seriously........people have learned how to fly planes and fly them very very well from flight sims, and from flight sims that are near as basic visually looking as Air warrior looked back in 1989.........

heck, some of the Navy Flight Simulators I tested on back in 86/87/88  was no different looking than that old Arcade Game called Tanks.........  the simulator was so basic, black screen  with 2 green lines for a runway....redlines for the tower..blue lines for the sky....... the controls were real though........and you could even fly under ground  ( if they had collision turned off )   

so keep to your historical tactics......... but also consider that we have come along way since the 1940's and we have learned a helluva a lot more knowledge about every plane at the same time.........


and play this game to have fun, if it's not fun..don't do it!!! ( <---stole that from NB )

[DREDIOCK]

A more accurate way to do it would be to take 4 good pony sticks, one good 109 stick and 3 guys who can kinda stay in formation if they try hard enough.
Put the Pony sticks in P51B's and the rest in Bf 109G-6's (not sure exactly what time period the above dogfight took place but the G-6 was in pretty widespread use from mid-1943 on).

What makes you so sure all 4 ponies were good sticks? 

[R 105]

As the 109s go I like the 109-F4 and the 109-G2 the best. I know they are not as fast as later models and the gun package is not as good. But I do like the way they fly at mid range speeds and the air speed pick up in a short distance and clime rate is very good. But I am a Pony driver most the time. It took a while to learn the 51 but I can go to a large air field and kill all the ords and fly away even with defenders in the air. It is not a good bird for a person new to AH to jump right into I don't think. But It is very much worth the time to learn to fly it.

R-105

[Speed55]

the only other thing would be, if the flight sim pilot of multi thousands of hours of practice was man enough to lay it on the line......

if he was I would take him over any WWII fighter pilot.........

And the first time he try's a high g  move that he's done a million times in AHII he blacks out and nose dives into the ground. 

In fact, i'd say that at least 90% of the people that play, myself included, wouldn't even be able to get a Real WWII bird off the ground without smoking an engine, or blowing out some hydraulic line somewhere because we didn't know what lever to pull, or knob to turn.

But in game, it all depends on the mood. If you want to fly your ride to it's strengths more power to you.  If you want to fly a dora like a spit just for kicks, if you're having fun, who cares what anyone thinks or says.

[Furball]

WOW! The P-51 was over 50mph faster than the 109?!  I love learning stuff from Dogfights.

[Masherbrum]

I was bored at work so I surfed youtube ! I found a very good video that demonstrate how the lag roll and E fight were used back in WWII.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EzXdSN9agg&feature=related

I love flying and all that but I like the realistic side of thing more then just go up get an F4U that can do things that it shouldn't be able to do and abuse it. I like tactics that were used in RL more then just some crazy tactic that was adapted just to suit AHII flying style. I mean I love tnb w/ Agent360 and all it's fun as hell, but I prefer not to get into that type of fighting unless I have to or feel like to!. Which why sometime I use tactics that people get pissed off such as E fighting  . Which I think it's all valid fighting style depending on the air plane. I like to max my plane performance in a fight where the lil 100 feet/s or 40 mph faster will mean getting shot down or not.

Some folks say that it's the pilot not the plane. To me that's BS, no matter how good a pilot is, when he goes up vs another pilot with equal skill that flys a better plane. He will have a hard time getting the advantage. The pilot in the better plane will always use his advantage and not let the one in the lower performance plane take the lead. People claiming they can outturn/manuever an La-7 while flying a D-9, I've yet to see. You know who you are! when you can do that get me, I wanna learn too!

Here was a vid that I got flame for, because I used my D-9 advantage over the La-7 in a 1 v 1. We merged at about 8K, I took the La-7 above 10K after the merge. I was never farther then 2K away on the merge from the La-7. The fight was about 1 min 30 secs. All I did was using my D9 engine power to rope the La-7. A valid RL tactic. Which totally got me flamed for a good 20 pages =p. Damn me for not tnb w/ an La-7 in a 1 v 1 situation! I think I put the D-9 to its max climbing performance vs the La-7. Well I knew the D-9 could out climb the La-7 above 10K which was why I just spiral cimb and bait the la-7 on my tail, making him think he should have the shot.

http://files.filefront.com/FW+190D9+v+LA7+0000ahf/;10033213;/fileinfo.html

Again it's totally retarded how other people who think they are better then other player trying to impose their playin style on other peeps. Of course forum bashing etc. I've seen a lot of spits and F4U pilots talking smack on 200 when they run into a 190 that will E fighting them. In my head I'd just say, damn if that guy only fly something other then EZ mode plane then he has the right to complain. Most 190 pilot fly its for historical reason. I mainly fly LW birds, 95% of all my sorties are in 190s and 109s. I know these birds are a lot harder to fly and they don't offer as much as the other planes do but hey I love LW birds so I stick with them. I'll use their advantage whenever I can. Which why a lot of time in 190 I will BnZ, In 109s though I'll tnb it all day long because it sux at BnZ. That's just how I use my plane to its advantage.

I'm totally against take a plane up and just fly til you're out of ammo/gas and die. What's special bout that I can do that anyday, I think making it home is where the challange is at. Making other plane goes boom is easy, making it out and bring your bird home is the hard part. Of course also not being timid while doing that. BnZ or TnB it's both very hard to bring the bird home. Usually try to go and land even if I only got 2-3 kills. It's just more rewarding and fun for me then just suicide it and get another bird. Well back to work for me =/

/rant on !

Too many typo's to take serious.   

[Widewing]

WOW! The P-51 was over 50mph faster than the 109?!  I love learning stuff from Dogfights.

A P-51B was rated at 440 mph @ 27k, the Bf 109G-6 was rated at 389 mph at 22k. That's 51 mph. In aces high, the P-51B can manage 443 at 27k and the 109G-6 can squeak out 391 mph at 22k (both at 25% fuel). That's a 52 mph difference. When both are at 27k, the P-51B can do 443 mph, and the 109G-6 about 370 mph. That's a 73 mph difference. Inasmuch as the B-17s were bombing from altitudes between 25k and 27k most of the time, the 109G-6 was badly over-matched against the Mustangs.

It was difficult for the 109G-6 pilots when facing P-51Bs, as the those Mustangs outclassed the G-6 by a significant margin in overall performance.


My regards,

Widewing

[Masherbrum]

Rebel - yep - could use more attitude like yours. I've never understood some peoples necessity of speaking down/belittling others. 

cheers eh!

You've never seen my squaddie Rebel on an "off-night".   

[Kazaa]

Dogfights isn't real life.

[Anaxogoras]

I think furball's point was that "50mph faster" passes for detailed analysis in Dogfights.

[Yeager]

I think furball's point was that "50mph faster" passes for detailed analysis in Dogfights.

Perhaps Dogfights wanted to appeal to those who were unfamiliar with the technical mumbo jumbo of WW2 fighter geeks....you know, the other 99% of humanity