ostwind vs strat

[AKSeaWulfe]

Okay, this entire discussion/argument is going entirely the wrong way.

Here's what the problem is with the Ostwind: It's being used in the WRONG roles as it was used historically. Ostwinds were designed to cover armored columns during movement along the front lines. When they rolled up to an area of enemy activity, the ostwinds stayed back in wooded areas and would fire upon incoming aircraft well behind the area attacks were occuring in. They were vulnerable to american tanks and the panzers/Tiger tanks were used to attack the american armor. Same with the M16, it was to cover rear areas of a frontal assualt from aerial attacks. How often do you see someone roll out an M16 to shoot a hangar up? Or roll onto a field and begin shooting at fuel tanks? Never. Yet the Ostwind and M16 were both for the same roll: Defensive cover for moving armor columns. They were not designed for front line assaults laying down a hail of 37mm fire HORIZONTALLY at oncomming tanks or even troops is beyond absurd. LIkewise with firing onto hangars to take them down. Make hangars and other ground objects, including tanks, impervious to ostwind fire and VOILA we have a solution. Telling me "but but that's not right" well neither is using an ostwind to blow apart a field. That's why panzers are here. Ostwinds are for defense against AIR attacks only.
-SW

It's being used in the incorrect role

[LJK Raubvogel]

AP round for 3,7cm Flak43 weighed .680kg

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 10-17-2000).]

[StSanta]

AKSeawulfe got it nailed down.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Udie]

 If I was a german in ww2 and found myself in an ostwind on an enemy base I'd shoot it up  

  The MA is not anything near historical, except for the fact that we're flying ww2 airframes.  Tactics will be formed around what assets we have in the arena.  ANYTHING that fires 37mm rounds will be on my list of good OFFENSIVE weapons    maybe if the Germans had used them offensively the war would have gone a different/worse direction.

 This touches on one of my favorite parts of arena game play.  The stratagies and tactics that are born out of these inviroments, I'm not talking about the gaming the game "tactics".  There are plenty of ways to get rid of an ostwind, about 2 or 3 panzers on the fields will help    or just take out his hangar takes about 10 min to do, including flight time.  Or get 2 planes to attack 1 flak from 2 diferent directions at the same time, that works for killing me  

Udie

[AKSeaWulfe]

And with that... Quake here we come!
-SW

[Pongo]

Sure has changed the game. It is definatly the most signifigant vehicle available(ground or air).

[GRUNHERZ]

Actually guys the various flakpanzers and M16 type things were used in ground attacks and troop supression. The M16 was used in this a lot. There was a AA Shereman concocted up by the Canadians called the Skink it mounted 4 20mm. I read this story of it often being used to flush out Germans holed up in some old house ruins, needless to say it worked really well. The Germans used their mobile vehicle mounted 37mm and 20mm on ground targets all the time. So they were used in ground attacks. The problem we have is its unrealistic use as the primary mode of attack on the bases. The only reason this is possible is because of its very poor damage modeling for an open topped vehicle, lack of gun crew wounding/killing, its relative invulnerability to the 40mm acks which are comporable weapons in range and effect, its invulnerability to close (non direct hit even with 2 1000 pounders)  bomb strikes, its ability to withstand any gufire other than hispano or 75mm, the proximity of spawn areas to bases, lack of barrel overheat and loss of rof to change ammo strips- both of which increase its effectiveness, plus its very powerful shell load which is apparently at least the equivalent of 24,000 pounds of bombs.
The other important not here is that they were always used with heavy infantry support and never alone as their open top made it very vulnerable satchel charges, grenades, and other infantry attack. Otherwise the osti is very correctly modeled and used as we stand now.  

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-17-2000).]

[AKSeaWulfe]

Find me sources and cite them that it was used in other rolls other than air defense. They were vulnerable to tanks more than they could hurt them, thus they were always held back when an assault was made. YOu couldn't very well fire that 37mm and keep moving, the gun fire would be way to inaccurate. Recoil, and dispersion also need to be introduced.
-SW

[GRUNHERZ]

First of all I never said anything about them fighting tanks. If tanks came they were done, which BTW isnt always the case in AH. However they were used in support of infantry if they needed some building cleaned up or in the case of M16 if there was a clump of trees suspected of hiding snipers. As for sources I read these accounts on pages 2, 4, 5, 56, 37, 76, and 237 of John Doe's "Big Book of Military Facts Youll need to win any argument on the AH BBS", first edition.   But seriously I saw film of Mobelwagens firing on ground targets and also the little Panzer 1 20mm flak conversions firing on ground targets. As for the Skink story it was in a military modeling magazine that did a kit conversion to make it. Really the point I have is that they did participate and fire on various light ground targets, but certainly not to the extent we see in here.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Fury]

Please get rid of the new improved beta map and give us back the old map.  The one that was in use when the Ostwind was introduced back on 9-8-00.

It just seems to me like most of the problems have been discussed on the UBB since the new improved beta terrain came out.

Fury

for grins I tried to look at the General discussion board for any obviously titled threads on vehicles or Ostwinds since it was introduced on 9-8.  Only after the beta terrain was re-released was there any real discussion of a "problem" with Ostwinds (imho - although, I may have missed some)

Between 9-8 and the new beta terrain I found:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005337.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005303.html

since the new beta terrain I found:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005742.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005819.html     (doesn't really count imho)
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005920.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005955.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005960.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005978.html

and this thread, ostwind vs. strat.  The general tone of the recent posts seem to me to come from the terrain and not the Ostwind.

let's not forget
"Profanity Filter"
"Warp City" (during 1.04 downloads)

both are suddenly not a hot topic anymore.  This too shall pass, get us another map please.

[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 10-17-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Find me sources and cite them that it was used in other rolls other than air defense. They were vulnerable to tanks more than they could hurt them, thus they were always held back when an assault was made. YOu couldn't very well fire that 37mm and keep moving, the gun fire would be way to inaccurate. Recoil, and dispersion also need to be introduced.
-SW

Yo SW...the M-16 had this lil nick-name... The meat chopper.

I'll go find a specific source, but unfortunately almost any SP-AAA gun ever used in combat was used in direct fire as well, sometimes even more then in the AAA role.

Remember, AAA guns have high rates of fire...that means great suppressive fire keeping enemy tanks buttoned up and infantry pinned down while the tanks they are supporting are free to fire without much harresment because the enemy is busy try to cover them. It's called over-watch.

The US's M-15a1 halftrack mounted a 37mm AA gun. It was almost useless in the AAA role because of range/fire control issues, and was used from then on almost exclusively as a suppresion/assault gun. This lead to the developement of the M-16, and you'd better believe those four ma duces could pin down several platoons of infantry.

What you describe is the "ideal" situation for AAA guns. But war was hardly anything like ideal, and men used what they had where they were to fight. AAA guns were a large part of it.

Take for example the cupola AAMG's of the German and US tanks. Sure, they were intended for AAA use, but were hardly EVER used that way. It sure didn't stop the commander from popping out of his hatch and pinning down infantry from his cupola while his gunner laid the main gun down where he was firing.


BUT...the Ostwind's use in AH is lame. Only 40 some odd conversions. There's probably that many in use at any given time in AH. AAA guns only had to fire in short bursts at aircraft, because needless to say they didn't stay in range for very long. This allowed enough cooling times that the barrels didn't have to be changed. In the infantry suppression role, they ALWAYS had either infantry or armor support of some kind, that allowed for barrel changes and transferring ammo from the hull to the gun turrent.


AH doesn't have infantry support, and armor is hardly ever coordinated with the Ostwind.


Sure the 37mm gun is a big shell and a powerful weapon, but against concrete enforeced bunkers it might sink in, but not very likely. I suppose they could keep at it like a jack hammer but that would still take forever.

If nothing else, strengthin the 75L48 Pak on the Panzer. It takes 3 hits to kill a fuel or ammo bunker, and 20 some odd hits to kill a hanger. Pretty well balanced for game play's sake, but not when compared to the Ostwind.

- Jig

PS if anyone has SP:WAW I have a few choice scenarios where 20 M-60's go after 90 Ostwinds. Guess who always loses?  
Fun watching all those Osties burn!

[AKSeaWulfe]

What I meant was they weren't used to demolish buildings like they are in AH. Here they are used as fast firing Panzers(Ostwinds). I admit, M16s CAN and DID lay waste to infantry units. I never said they didn't. I said the Ostwind didn't.. that's because it was rarely ON the front line. It was more of an escort to the front line or to the next fire fight for the tanks.
-SW

[GRUNHERZ]

We are more or less in agreement I think, the main point being ostis didnt do in RL what they do here.  

[funked]

Jig is right.  There are a lot of stories from the war about US and German AAA units putting up a hell of a fight when cornered by enemy ground units.

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Plus the ground fire aspect of Flakpanzers was fully accounted for in the design of the next model, the Kugelblitz. It had a fully enclosed turret with small doors on the sides of the 2 30mm that opened up to allow air targeting, within these doors were even smaller circular sliding panels which were expressly designed for use when firing at ground targets.  But to all the ostidweebs out there I must make this point clear, you guys are playing QUAKE whan you do the things you do as very little of it is in any way comparable to what took place in real life WW2.

thanks GRUNHERZ