Author Topic: Just curious.  (Read 3996 times)

Offline Dragon

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 04:05:16 PM »
It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang. The Mustang just got the credit. I used to fish with a guy who flew Jugs in the war and he used to tell me the storys. Much of the Luftwaffe attrition was done with ground attacks. The Jug was also a terror to German rail traffic, a fact you dont hear to often nowdays. That the German war machine was heavily Dependant on rail traffic.


Someone posted a link a while back to a video of some JUGS taking out rail bridges and such.  Wild stuff.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2008, 04:08:40 PM »
Someone posted a link a while back to a video of some JUGS taking out rail bridges and such.  Wild stuff.

This is a good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGm5ZobgpBw&feature=related
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2008, 04:23:54 PM »
No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe.  <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.

Gee...thanks. None of knew that. Must be tough for you living in a world full of idiots.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 04:39:29 PM »
Talon, I like the Jug too, but come on, let's be honest.

First and foremost, the Jugs didn't have the range the P-51 had until the P-47N came out. The P-47Ds simply couldn't do the same missions the P-51 could.

Second, I just did a quick look at the P-51 B and Ds vs. the 47Ds performance up to 30K in game. Basically, there is little or no performance advantage to the Jug before the M/N below 30K, and performance disadvantage below 20K.  Of course, that doesn't take into account things like Robert Johnson's hot-rod, but its a good measuring stick. If we want to compare a very-late war upgrade like the P-47M/N to a Mustang, then it is most properly compared to the P-51H.

Third, one of the reasons I often fly a Jug instead of a Pony in AHII is that here is little or no maneuverability disadvantage in flying the Jug, indeed, in pure turning radius and slow handling, the Jug has it over the Pony in our game. This simply does not mesh with real-life assessments of the aircraft by both Allied and Axis pilots. Awhile back, I posted the commentary of a Luftwaffe pilot who also tested captured Allied aircraft, his words were something along the lines of "The P-47 was not so bad because the 109 could out-climb and out-turn it, the P-51 was another matter."

For very long range escorts and as a dogfighter below 25-30K, the Mustang was indeed a step forward. For dominating at very high altitudes and as a rugged jabo platform, the Jug was indeed the right choice. The Mustang probably does get too much of the press, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right plane at the right time.

Offline MjTalon

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 04:42:49 PM »
Alright, here's why we didn't take the N's gavagai:

The P47N fully loaded for escorting tips the scale at 21,000 pounds. Her climb rate fully loaded with that much fuel puts us at a disadvantage until we burned at least 75% internal.

When we were first scouted out, our P47s were barely at 20k before 262s were all over us. Picture if we were in P47Ns fully loaded with gas...it would have been MUCH worst than it was.

IF we would have took off from the mainland ( 25th FW ) we would have been at a good enough alt to put up a good offensive but we were on the defensive from the start. We actually did quite well.

The reason i picked the P47D25 for the escort was simple. She's a beginner jug for those who didn't understand her, and she's lighter than the D40 and N even with fully loaded fuel so it was optimal.  If i can recall majority of the 8th AF P47 squadrons flew the D25s, which for historical reasons is why we went with it.

The N's weren't used for ETO and this was a ETO style raid, hence why we didn't choose the D40/N models.

As for you fellers who think I'm a JUG head. Yes in fact i am, but I've flown my fair share of crates to do the criticizing. But this wasn't by all means a whine, just a curious observation from my part...

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Offline Furball

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 04:46:44 PM »
Gee...thanks. None of knew that. Must be tough for you living in a world full of idiots.

Why i edited my original post - didn't want to imply that i was calling you an idiot, guess i failed even with the edit. 

I was just saying how stupid the argument is that one single plane won the war.  With the Battle of Britain it is always the Spitfire, over Europe it is always the P-51 or B-17.  All of which simply are not true.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 04:49:34 PM by Furball »
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 04:46:49 PM »
Talon, I like the Jug too, but come on, let's be honest.

First and foremost, the Jugs didn't have the range the P-51 had until the P-47N came out. The P-47Ds simply couldn't do the same missions the P-51 could.



P-47N was used for ETO. As i stated below this was a Replica of a 8th AF style raid. If we were doing something of the PTO side  I'd have chosen the P47N from deep within Rook land. The P47N's climb rate fully loaded is just horrible sir. the N jug loaded for long/High alt escorting will climb darn near 1100ft/min. A little over that but i'm no numbers guy.

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 04:47:42 PM »
The climbrate of the D25 with military power seems to be decisive.  Good post.
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 04:53:14 PM »
There could have been economics in the works as well. 51s were substantially cheaper than Jugs as I recall. Most of the pilots didn't care to transition over to the Mustang when they first appeared. Some developed a love for the newer aircraft and others continued to wish for their Thunderbolts back. From a real pilot standpoint I believe I would've preferred a Jug to the mustang simply for survivability. Mustangs were frail in comparison and a single small arms bullet could take out a coolant line and you would be riding silk home instead of aluminum.

Given the choice of any American bird as a WWII pilot I would've chose the Corsair. It was almost as rugged as the Jug and later versions outperformed the mustang in every category except range and rear visibility.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 05:11:03 PM »
Given the choice of any American bird as a WWII pilot I would've chose the Corsair. It was almost as rugged as the Jug and later versions outperformed the mustang in every category except range and rear visibility.

Here again, the F4U-4 is most properly compared to the P-51H. I'm not saying the P-51H should be added to the game, but they very nearly did serve in the war and are the most proper comparison if we want to put the "latest and greatest" Mustang up against the other latest and greatest birds from the last five minutes or so of the war.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 05:26:18 PM »
I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?

A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force. 

Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.

Just my $0.02 cents.  :eek:


If there were 50% more P-51's than jugs and the p-51's had 50%more  casualties than the the jugs then the  casualty rate is the same. P-51's had better range than the P-47's . I have a book written by a German pilot who flew captured American planes and he said below 20K the P-47's were dogs. In fact German pilots would try and lure P-47's below 20K for this reason. I do agree with the rest of your statements.

Offline LilMak

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2008, 05:40:52 PM »
Here again, the F4U-4 is most properly compared to the P-51H. I'm not saying the P-51H should be added to the game, but they very nearly did serve in the war and are the most proper comparison if we want to put the "latest and greatest" Mustang up against the other latest and greatest birds from the last five minutes or so of the war.

You're right about that but I still would've prefered the Corsair or the Jug because I'm selfish and want to have a better chance of survival if my plane takes a hit. Plus how many P-51s shot down Korean Mig-15s? And I don't remember hearing them changing the max G-loads on Corsairs for major control surfaces departing the aircraft but I seem to remember them doing that to the 51s.

For me it's about reliability and survivability. I take everything into account when I think about what my aircraft choice would be. Even the appearance of the Corsair lends itself to survivability. Mustangs were often mistaken for 109s and other aircraft but the gull wing made the Corsair unique and is the only reason I chose it over the Hellcat which had a much better score card than any of them.
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Offline Hajo

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2008, 05:46:02 PM »
During the end of hostilities in Europe the P47M came into play.

Since I believe only 67 Tas' saw service I would hope that the M model P47 will be added to the MA inventory at some time.

Until that time comes.....many aircraft from History that were widely used during WWII in the earlier years need added to make our

Scenario more fun and immersing.

The list is long.

He111, Do17, Ki43 etc.  I feel these crafts and the like should be added first. This of course for the virtual reality of our Scenarios.

Right now we a limited, and can't cover the scope of the WWII air war because of the lack of original aircraft.

Aces High will have better larger events when these aircraft are added to the Aces High inventory.

We are here for virtual reality.  Specially in Scenarios.  That's what draws us to them.

Let's get the early war aircraft added as soon as possible!
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Offline KayBayRay

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2008, 06:29:12 PM »
Maj, 2points

1) A Ferrari in the hands of a 12 year old is still in the hands of a 12 year old regardless of the capabilities of the Vehicle. My understanding was that many of those pilots in the mission that took the P51D did not perform well because they either did not follow mission orders or did not know how to utilize the capabilities of their AC as well as those that flew the P47's in the mission, which by the way did follow mission doctrine and were very familliar with their AC. IMHO I dont think the results of this online Mission corellate well at all with historical reality due to the factors I mentioned.

2) IIRC the P47 was not the AC of choice for long range strategic bombing missions due to lack of operational combat range. It may have been the "Terror of the Skies" over France but not over Germany escorting strategic bombing missions until the last months of the war. I am pretty sure that the distances flown in AHII even in the largest arena do not approximate those flown in historical missions launched from bases in the UK to targets in Germany during WWII.

Based on these 2 points I dont agree completely with your post. However I do agree that pretty much any AC in the hands of a pilot that is very familliar with its capabilities and can utilize them will fare much better against an opponent in a vastly superior AC that does not know that AC well nor is able to utilize it.

Just my thoughts.

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Offline Dream Child

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2008, 07:06:01 PM »
No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe.  <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.

The Mustang is great is because it was the first fighter that could escort the heavy bombers to target and back. Before that, the enemy fighters could just wait outside of fighter cover range for the buffs to come in. From a pure fighter standpoint, it wasn't necessarily the best, but the enemy had to deal with them before getting to the buffs, something no other fighter before it could do.