Rook MoM, escort strategy?

[stephen]

Popycd here,
this post is not directly affiliated with the planning process, but is intended more as a tool for the Rook's out there that found themselves trying to escort with a foot in the bucket.

I've been farting around offline with several Allied aircraft trying to find a way to over come the Ta-152's without resorting to actualy flying one myself.
Since the 51D's and 47's require alot of time to actualy climb up to escort alt, and they need to bring alot of fuel which seems to make the problem of time to alttitude even worse, i've been been throwing around a couple of idea's in my head.

One thought was having several flights of 51's take off without drop tanks so that they might get to alt faster and provide cover for the bombers while the heavily laden escorts with tanks made thier way to the same position to relieve the initial tankless flight. This would work at the cost of flight time for the guys that didnt take tanks, but would put at-least some cover over the bombers so mabey the 190's couldnt stream in unapposed.

Another thought was for several flights of escorts take off directly ahead of the bombers, and have them loitering above the most likly avenue's of approach by enemy interceptor's, or even capping the enemy fighter fields themselves. This would effectivly limit the alttitude of the enemy fighters by engaging them far enough away from the bombers that few would have the massive alttitude advantage when the approached the bomber stream.

And yet another idea has several flights of spitfires actualy escorting the escorts, and rendevouse with the bombers ahaed of the main batch of American escorts....this I think is perhaps the most daring of all, and perhaps the most fool hardy.
While taking several aircraft to 35,000+ i've noticed a remarkable trend among the Spitfire's, in that above 30,000 the fuel endurance of a Spit16 jumps to over 60 minutes (and this is without the slipper tank added which im sure would bump it up even more)
Im likley to recieve alot of bitter reply's on this one, but I think having 8 or 10 spit's take up an early escort possition above the bombers might give the heavily laden american escorts time to climb without having to directly engage the enemy while still nose up, and heavy on fuel.
Once again this probably wouldn't be much fun for the spit pilots, and the rendevous with the bombers would have to be made carefully to preserve as much fuel as possible, but it would give the bombers effective, good climbing escort at hi alttitude, and aleviate alot of pressure from the american flights of escorts I believe.

Ok fellas there you go, mabey I deserve dirision for thinking outloud like this, but i'd hate to suffer another womping at the hands of those stinkin Ta's again, so lets get to thinking about a way to get some bombers to target AND home again this time lol.

[Hap]

Takes less than 15 mins for a 47N or 51D to get to 30K.  And staging Spits is a great idea if their gas holds.  Also, just because the 47 holds 3,400 rounds of ammo doesn't mean for a given mission it needs that much.  Same with gasoline. 

Calculate or test offline the time it takes buffs to get to target &/or return.  Rigging escorts with the fuel needed is easy then.  E6B on runway at full throttle will tell you.

Also, if escorts make it all the way and land with buffs, they'll probably need less.  Because on climbout, they'll be working on maximum range engine settings.  Fun stuff.

[crockett]

P51's I couldn't imagine needing more than 100% fuel. When I fly the P51D I typically take 75% fuel and can fly for 40+ mins, I'd imagine 100% would get you close to a hour flight time if you aren't at 100% throttle the whole time. How long do these missions last?

The P47's on the other hand have to carry far too much fuel to be effective long range because they will take too long to climb out with two DT's and if they aren't disciplined they will lose too much alt in the fight to be able to defend the Buffs.

If it were me planning something long range and a big mission, I'd send the P51's as the long range bomber escort at high alt 25k to 30k then send the Jugs in lower 18k to 20k just in front of the buffs to keep the enemy occupied and down low. Let the Jug's be the work horse and get dirty and the P51's do what they were designed to do.

[Stampf]

Try Force Allocation.

You need hunter groups designed to deal with the task.  Both your fighter aircraft are up to it.  You know the foemen are going to be up there.  Assign certain men/groups, the task of dealing with the issue.  Leave other tasks to other units. And so on.

[crockett]

As a side note, I don't mind seeing the big missions if it's to hit a strat objective (regardless if it's pointless or not) rather than seeing giant hordes milk running bases. I think big organized missions could bring some fun and realism to the game as long as they aren't abused and used to milk run lightly defended bases.

Keep these big missions strat based and it could bring some "random snap shot" type fun to TT.

[Hap]

At sealevel, all with 75% fuel and dt's: 51 = 66 mins, 47N (two 75 gal dts) = 58 mins, Ta152 = 59 mins, P38L = 55 mins.

Reducing engine oomph will increase those numbers. 

[Rich46yo]

Let the Jug's be the work horse and get dirty and the P51's do what they were designed to do.

Except they were also designed to be high altitude escorts and accomplished that role often during WW-ll. They were given fancy turbo-chargers in order to attack only ground targets.

[Spikes]

I had the idea once with these high alt buff missions...getting a squad of 5-7 P38L's for scouting purposes and trying to occupy and drag down the cons as they near the main buff group...

[crockett]

Except they were also designed to be high altitude escorts and accomplished that role often during WW-ll. They were given fancy turbo-chargers in order to attack only ground targets.

Yea, but that's not the point I was getting at. 90% of the players in this game wouldn't be able to bounce a lower aircraft in a Jug and stay in touch with the bombers, specially at high alts. It's hard enough to get them to do it in a P51 and it's both lighter and more nimble. Hence the Reason I say just keep the Jugs lower with the intention of having them fight off the first wave of attacks in hopes of keeping the attackers low.

Then use the PonyD's as the last stand with the Buffs. If you have two stages of defenders it's most likely the bulk of the first waves will see the Jugs as a low hanging fruit allowing the bombers more time to get closer to the target before they start getting bothered too much.

[stephen]

I've used the E6B trick on the ground before, but some aircraft (including the p47 me262 etc.) recieve enormouse time increases with altitude, it might mean gliding back to base, but the higher you go, the farther you can be an effective escort.

Problem is, (and im sure they butted thier heads up against it in ww2) it takes alot of planning to have aircraft in the right airspace at the right time, and the job of escort is allways going to be tougher than interception where fuel is concernd.
There were several problems with the allied fighters on the last MoM, and its going to take the experienced fly'rs making suggestions to get it all sorted out.
My biggest concern is running up to 35000 in a jug again, and having WAY to much fuel on board, but if I click off those tanks and try to gain some performance the bombers are gonna turn for home un-escorted.

I believe we need a time table, a lite enough fighter to be effective against the high flying german aircraft, and co-ordination bettween the fighters so that the proper number of escorts can be held at hi alt and in reserve for the return trip.

Spy's be damn'd if we do this right then it shouldnt matter where they intercept the bombers.....we should be prepared.

I've flown alot of escort mission's in the MA and i've really began to lean toward taking a couple of guys forward with me while leaving a suitable number to directly escort the bombers.
I hope to serve two purposes in this, Catching the nme while they are climbing up,  and giving the bombers a heads up on what to expect and from where.

I've been ducking taking responsibility for a flight of escort fighters because its alot of work keeping a flight on the same page, and personaly im a bit afraid of taking 10 guy's on what might turn out to be a milk run..... but I think if Delta would permit it I could plug at-least one of the holes in our tactics with 10 to 15 fighters taking the load out I suggest before the mission starts. What ammounts to a fighter sweep fanning out in front of the bombers flight path without a heavy fuel load out, and keeping these few guys un attached to close escort would help alot I believe, though I dont want to finger egsactly what tactic, or aircraft we would be flying/using.

Without giving to much away i'd like to see the enemy fighters kept well away from our formations to let the bombers do thier work, and I know a way to do it I believe.
the 262's are going to get into the bomber box im afraid, and there isnt much to be done about it, but im sick of see'ing these TA pilots land kills, and I want to egsact some revenge on behalf of all the fighters caught with thier pants down on the last one... A8Popycd

[Rich46yo]

Except they were also designed to be high altitude escorts and accomplished that role often during WW-ll. They weren't given fancy turbo-chargers in order to attack only ground targets.

fixed, from "were given fancy turbochargers".

[Rich46yo]

Yea, but that's not the point I was getting at. 90% of the players in this game wouldn't be able to bounce a lower aircraft in a Jug and stay in touch with the bombers, specially at high alts. It's hard enough to get them to do it in a P51 and it's both lighter and more nimble. Hence the Reason I say just keep the Jugs lower with the intention of having them fight off the first wave of attacks in hopes of keeping the attackers low.

Then use the PonyD's as the last stand with the Buffs. If you have two stages of defenders it's most likely the bulk of the first waves will see the Jugs as a low hanging fruit allowing the bombers more time to get closer to the target before they start getting bothered too much.

I dont know. I was able to do it and it was only the first time I ever escorted bombers. Usually I'm flying the bomber.

And I'll admit I dont think I got any kills. A few assists but no kills, at least I dont think so. Its all a matter of discipline so far as chasing cons away from a bomber group no matter what your escorting in. My big thing is to keep the high ground away from the interceptors and force them to take angles in that give the buff gunners the advantage. Giving so much information and advantage to the enemy took away a lot of that but there were still a lot of Jug sticks who stayed high and disciplined.

Theres always a few who think landing kills is job #1 and screw the other guy and they will do it in any airplane you put em in. The P-47 is a very capable escort airplane. Besides up at 25k to 30k, where they are supposed to be, they climb about the same.

As a Buff driver all I ever wanted from escorts was for them to take away the high angles of attack that are difficult to defend. Everything else we'll take care of in the guns.

[Spikes]

Bombrich has it. Escort pilots worry about kills kills kills, but they should be worrying about getting their package to the target. Keep the attacking planes at LEAST level with the buffs, and try to burn their E by making swiping passes at them. This way, you make them burn E by manuvering whilst you keep your E and altitude.

[MachNum]

Problem is, (and im sure they butted thier heads up against it in ww2) it takes alot of planning to have aircraft in the right airspace at the right time, and the job of escort is allways going to be tougher than interception where fuel is concernd.

And it's still a problem, even today. The USAF has devoted a great deal of time, resources, and horsepower to mission planning software and their pilots/crews practice endlessly to fly to those plans. It was clearly an issue back in the day, since the annals of WWII are full of flights that failed to show up on time (or at all) or got lost somewhere in the process, usually with bad results. I'd argue that it's even harder to get coordination in AH2 than it was in WW2. Our comm systems are not as good, our pre-flight briefings are next to non-existent, and our pilots are not as skilled at formation flying and station keeping. Also, your opponents are a) not afraid to die, b) have access to the best technology of the day at the touch of a button (i.e. no worries about production rates or maintenance problems), and c) expect the whole thing to be a game and therefore fun.

It does, however, sound like you're on the right track, and since I'm a big fan of putting the people who care in charge, you should volunteer to lead 

A few more stray thoughts on the topic:

Would a dedicated ground controller be helpful? Trying to keep up with the "big picture" while in-flight is next to impossible, yet being able to direct resources to the right place seems like a key need for this type of event. Speaking of events, don't the special events have many of these types of problems too?

Getting the bombers up to altitude before they get jumped seems like an issue as well. Spreading out the launch points all over the place and only coming together once you're at altitude might help, although talk about coordination nightmares. The survival rate of buffs goes up significantly at 30K.

The bad guys have much better intel in AH2 than they did in WW2. Are radars along the way worth taking out? Or is it simply the dar bar that's doing you in?

Best of luck with your plans!

[stephen]

Fact is it only takes one enemy plane sighting the bombers stream for the rest to have GREAT intel on the location of said bombers...
The point im making is that 10 minutes after the bombers lift off at-least some of the fighter force needs to be at alt., otherwise we risk another fiasco.

Unfortunatly I feel that a ground man is really redundent as he is provided with the same information as a fighter in flight, and we could seriously use that man in either a fighter or a bomber...
Having fighters on a seperate vox than the bombers is also a seriouse handicap, I believe ww2 fighters had two freq's available to them in flight unlike ourselves, and this means that information could be passed around rather quickly.

Unfortunatly the way our clipboard and vox is set up lends yet another hand to the interceptors, as they are simply intrested as to where the bombers are and at what alt.