Attitude...

[Paladin3]

... is everything. And honestly when I started playing 3 months back I was so impressed by the great attitude by the majority of the folks in the Rook nation (because its the only ones that I have flown with). Many people have been great about saying hello, and really being helpful. The only folks from another nation that I have had much contact with is the Lynchmob during the current tour which they are wrapping up. From the Rook side, other than my old squadron, A&8s, the New Outcasts, LCA, the Crazy Gang, and some others that I know but don't remember what your squadron name is (sorry guys) have been outstanding. I've been really impressed and one of the main reasons this game is so addictive to me is because of the camaraderie and the fun of upping where people are that I know, who will talk and help get the mission done. Some of you have noticed that when people don't talk, people don't even courteously say hello or sorry, don't know what you are asking about, I tend to go find another fight. Its because of those above reasons.

Now, having posted on the forums a few times I see a whole different side. This is more like the thug basketball trash talk that goes on so much on channel 200. I am not angry over the post in the seabass arena, but disappointed in the lack of anything more than comments accusing me of whining. Well boys and girls, I grew out of whining before I served my nation, and I don't whine now. That isn't to say that I don't voice my opinion (I'll say at least I had and continue to have the courage to defend those rights which I am sure some of those who tout them and flaunt them so much just to pick on people as do small bullies in school) or that it isn't a popular opinion when I do. It often isn't, but I voice it and go on.

I suppose the topic of this post is to say that I am unhappy with those in our community that act in such a fashion both on the forums and in the arenas and to say that it really isn't necessary. To those of you that have called on me to help you in the arena: remember me, because if in the position to help you I always will to the best of my ability. Its a game, and I take that with a grain of salt, but the way people treat each other is not something to be taken lightly, in real life face to face, over the phone during business, or over the internet in a game. Insults, accusations of whining when people voice a minority opinion, they really are not needed, and make me wonder what kind of people are floating around sometimes.

Please try to treat me with some courtesy, and I will do the best I can as well. If I seem to be insulting, call me on it and more than likely its just the fact that I am blunt and I'll explain nothing personal and apologize for the feeling that I had meant to insult you. I hope to fly with you all in the future and to learn and maybe teach a bit, and have a good time and make some new acquaintances.

To all of you, the good and the bad, the courteous and the rude, I defended your way of life with my tank, with my rifle, with my head, and with my life.

You are all welcome.

[Nilsen]

Dont tune to 200 

[Bronk]

You're going to need thicker skin on the bbs. Be prepared to have people vehemently disagree with you.


Edit: Ohh and just so you know many here have served also... they still may disagree with you.

[Anaxogoras]

You're going to need thicker skin on the bbs. Be prepared to have people vehemently insult you.

Fixed.

[uptown]

  nice post Paladin

[Bronk]

Fixed.

Well there is that.....luftwhiner.

[Soulyss]

One thing to keep in mind when posting on the BBS (particularly when it is on a touchy or sensitive topic).

When you voice an opinion here sometimes it helps to keep in mind that it's probably not an original opinion.  Many of the folks who frequent these boards have been doing so for many many years and if an opinion is voiced, particularly if it is done in such a way that it come off as whining about something it will probably be treated harshly because it's been heard countless times before.  

It helps to realize that every year people complain about the evil con mission.  It's not fair, how come the con goers get special treatment, I lost my 262, etc. etc.  So when people see something like;

Hey I did read it and it didn't tell me anything other than my squad night was going to be messed up by something for which I have no chance to move to another LW Arena to get away from if I choose not to.

They just see another person who needs to lighten up and they let that individual know it.   Sure it could probably be done more tastefully but after seeing it again and again perhaps it's easy to become somewhat jaded.  

[Paladin3]

I dont know, another example is the heckling on country channel that goes on when someone asks something such as how do I lower my tail hook, inveritably followed by Shift F4 or go to the TA or something. Some folks spend more time doing that than just helping a fellow out. I guess it just frustrates me that I am still relatively new, and I see others get treated that way while I was pretty lucky in the folks that I ran into - that are really curteous and top notch people.

I don't care that people don't agree with me. That's not quite right, it doesn't make me mad that some do. Not a problem. I learn things that way. The post is just about the way people come across, instead of making the point and moving on, some feel the need to go a lower road. And yeah, I pay to fly with my pals... And when asking what was going on it took 30 minutes for someone I knew to finally run into me and tell me about the convention, and the special events done to celebrate it. Couldn't find anything that screamed at me, or even whispered to me in the forums, and the in arena message didn't tell me anything. If it had started out with, "In celebration of our convention tonight we will have some wild, whacky fun in the arenas." and then gone into the rest of the message ok, but it came across as something rather... I dunno I have a secret and I'm not telling - which doesn't tell me much, and then the heckling from others... I don't know, it just frustrated me last night. Once I found out I shrugged and went on. It wound up not affecting me and if it had I would have spent my evening doing something else. The topic of the post is about the way it was addressed within the community.

[uptown]

Keeping it a secret is the beauty of it imo. All day I'm wondering what crazy thing they're going to have. Kind of like waiting up for Santa. And just like when I was a kid, I fell asleep before the magic moment arrived 

[Anaxogoras]

While I agree that paladin's contribution to the seabass thread was very high strung, I think this OP is very good.  Its content should be considered independent of what happened somewhere else.  The lesson is that the "whiner" label is grossly over used here.  I've seen lots of well reasoned, calm posts called whining simply because they express a negative evaluation.  Some seem to think that calling someone a whiner is an automatic win, as if merely saying it makes it so.  Others have even admitted that there's little logic or reason to how things are done at the bbs, but defended it with "that's the way we like it."  Ultimately, it's a school-yard mentality that many grown men still find preferable to acting their age.

Fairness complaints are what I most frequently see labeled with "whine."  The whole point of a fairness complaint is that it's not self-centered like real whining.  "It's not fair" means it would be wrong even if I weren't the victim.  Some fairness complaints are bs, it's true, but true whining is always self-centered.  Paladin's original complaint, although expressed poorly, is a classic example of a fairness complaint.  His position was that it's not fair for anyone to pay money for a service and then not receive it, not just him.  Many disagreed with him because of the special circumstance of the convention, but calling a fairness complaint a whine inflames the situation.

[Soulyss]

I have to disagree in that many of the "it's not fair" complaints are often times completely self serving.
The types of posts that I consider to be "fairness" complaints are the ones we frequently see about arena caps, multiple MA's, ENY, etc.  Often times it is one presenter expressing a displeasure of HTC policy or action that is often based on a self serving motive.  For example the ENY whine, I can't fly the plane that I want.  This is false statement you can choose to switch countries and fly anything you like.  Some will throw up their hands and say that they are loyal to a chess piece, and that's their choice.  They are not thinking of the community at large in this complaint, only their own or at best squad's interest. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of "fairness complaints". 

[Anaxogoras]

I have to disagree in that many of the "it's not fair" complaints are often times completely self serving.

Well, those are the ones I call BS.   Those are whines that masquerade as fairness complaints.

It can be a subtle distinction, however.   For example, the recent thread about 30mm for the 109G-6.  That's supposed to be a fairness complaint, but if it were changed it would be in favor of those who fly the 109 (like me).  Still, I think that what makes it a legitimate complaint is that it's based on a consistency argument, i.e. other aircraft have access to less-common loadouts, so should this one.

[Stang]

Its a game, and I take that with a grain of salt...

And there you have it.  Your post in the Seabass thread was a whine because a totally unserious event, the evil con mission, was going to somehow mess up your night.  If you truly believe what I have quoted then you should have laughed it off and had fun with it, not be the first one to cry about it.

It is a game, have fun with it, don't take it too seriously.

[Anaxogoras]

Let me see how I would parse through these examples:

The types of posts that I consider to be "fairness" complaints are the ones we frequently see about arena caps, multiple MA's, ENY, etc.  Often times it is one presenter expressing a displeasure of HTC policy or action that is often based on a self serving motive.  For example the ENY whine, I can't fly the plane that I want.  This is false statement you can choose to switch countries and fly anything you like.  Some will throw up their hands and say that they are loyal to a chess piece, and that's their choice.  They are not thinking of the community at large in this complaint, only their own or at best squad's interest. 

ENY complaints, "it's not fair!"  ENY complaints are by definition arguments against fairness, because the whole point of the ENY system is to balance a numerical advantage.  Moreover, you are correct that these whiners could easily switch countries.

Arena Caps, "it's not fair!"  Arena cap complaints seem a little more legitimate to me, but they overlook the worse consequences of removing them.  I get frustrated by arena caps sometimes, we all do, but whenever I see the foo-fighters in TT and the fubar radar, I remember why we have them.  I see these as misguided complaints but not full-blown whines.

[Motherland]

It's a whine if someone points out something wrong with gameplay and doesn't offer any legitimate way to fix it (unless it's a bug, of course... unless the person throws out insults with the report).

Whine;
"ENY SUCKS! Get rid of it!"

Not whine;
"I don't like the current ENY system. Some planes need their ENY levels adjusted. Perhaps you could implement zone ENY as well."



Whine;
"I got invalidcomponent0 when I dropped on a Panzer! What a bunch of BS! HTC your game is buggy crap!"

Not Whine;
"I got invalidcomponent0 when I dropped on a Panzer. Here's film."
('invalidcomponent0' was a bug that occasionally popped up when you directly hit Panzers with bombs, it was fixed a couple updates ago)