Author Topic: The Spiral rope (short film within)  (Read 1464 times)

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 03:58:03 PM »
i get that all the time when i post reversals and overshoots. someone always says 'that enemy was clueless'. Funny that i seem to be having immense success with my flying style, there must be a huge ammount of people out there flying like utter crap just when they get near me... and i dont just mean zipcodes and 2 weekers...

Fact of it is, Steve made a good kill or two using a method someone wanted advice on. Stve posted said method for the person. The enemy Steve dispatched may have made mistakes, but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
 Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 04:01:09 PM by mechanic »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 06:19:32 PM »
Everytime I see a Mossie, I think "Careful, might be Batfink".

Then someone dives in ahead of me at the speed of light and takes that Mossie which never even break turns.

Same thing with P-51s "Might be Steve/Skatsr/take your pick"

Every plane in the whole list about the same way. Never know when you might run into a Ju-87 ace...

But most other players probably aren't that anal about the whole affair.



i get that all the time when i post reversals and overshoots. someone always says 'that enemy was clueless'. Funny that i seem to be having immense success with my flying style, there must be a huge ammount of people out there flying like utter crap just when they get near me... and i dont just mean zipcodes and 2 weekers...

Fact of it is, Steve made a good kill or two using a method someone wanted advice on. Stve posted said method for the person. The enemy Steve dispatched may have made mistakes, but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
 Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 07:10:07 PM »
heh BnZ i think i am.. whenever i see a nik im thinking WingZero, or a low spit16 im dreaming i might have finally found kazaa at a disadvantage. The list goes on and on.
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Offline Steve

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 08:54:41 PM »
but almost everyone here makes the same mistake almsot every sortie.
 Either that or I somehow manage to only find noobs and 2 weekers impersonating veteran's account names..

Yessir! I see this almost every night. My target didn't do anything that most MA sticks wouldn't do. 64 is no dummy though. I fooled him  once... we'll see if it happens again.   :salute
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 08:56:16 PM by Steve »
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Offline uptown

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 09:04:48 PM »
64 has a good teacher and several good wingmen  :rock
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 08:27:41 AM »
Dadsguns you are mistaken. 64 did intend to engage me. He acquired me as I went past him on the way down as I took a shot at the la7. This isn't a thread on what 64 did or did not do. People have asked me about the spiral rope and I am trying to give them some pointers from my experience. Instead of belittling my efforts, why don't you share some of your uber skills with us?

Again, your film clearly does not show your skill, it shows the lack of JB's.  No disrespect intended to either one, but his speed was really low for any manuver for a con with alt.  You took advantage of this plain and simple, you could have done a barrel roll, with an S turn or any fancy named move and could have killed him.


You weren't off track, really. I just didn't want it to become an indictment of 64. It's an easy trap to watch what someone did and then say how one should have done it. 64 even implied that he would have done things differently if he'd known it was me...his words. I'm not saying you wouldn't have done things differently. Again, I don't want 64 to be critiqued for his flying here.

My words were more directed at dadsguns who trivialized the maneuver when I know full well he is incapable of replicating it with any regularity. You know, armchair quarterback stuff. There was another thread recently where he had a snide remark in a similar vein.

Steve,
Sorry if you took my reply that way, which it wanst intended to criticize either pilot, but it appeared to me in the video that he was not initially trying to engage, you just used your alt and E to your advantage.  I did not find anything spectacular about your move.

As for your "full knowledge of me replicating it with any regularity" or your lack thereof, you could not be more mistaken, as a matter of fact, I pulled a beautiful text book rope against another player just a day before you posted this, I failed to record this event as well as many others.  That pilot gave up a fierce fight and in the end <S>. 

Your basis on the maneuver is close, but should not be used as an example IMO.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 08:39:52 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline humble

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 09:30:45 AM »
Dad I think your acting a bit clueless on this one.

We can break this game down into two major components (as it relates 2 one on one fights). We have the staged duel where both sides start from an equal footing, almost (but not always) in the same plane. Most often we think of the "best" pilot based on this criteria.

We then have the "MA" environment where a 1 on 1 is a random event with a tremendous variation in starting positions and plane types and the constant threat of interruption. This is completely different fight and requires a lot of mental agility. I cant tell you the number of times I've sat in an A-20 watching a guy with E and alt on me and waving squaadies or other friendlies off since I know the guy will be dead in 15-20 seconds. Other times I run into a real pro and know I'm a slab of tuna on a 1st date with a sushi chef after 5 seconds or so.

What makes the MA great is this uncertainty, all to often we "abuse" a pilot because of his choice of ride or ignore his skill level. While I will occasionally lose a fight to the other plane more often then not credit belongs to the pilot. When you look at the guys who've commented here you see by and large a bunch of guys widely recognized for ability and as "great fight" guys. Steve cant control who the other guy is or what he's flying, all he can do is manage the fight based on circumstance and employ the best tactics he can. Further this tactic is universally the single biggest kill harvester in the game...and suprisingly difficult to master. We all fall to it from time to time and on the flip side we all cut it to close and get "golden BB'd as well.

This is a great example of a very important aspect of +E fighting. I can kill about 80% of the pony drivers in this game one on one in an A-20. It's a select few like Steve, Skat, Chalenge, AKDG etc that can consistantly "go sushi" on me and I have never once (I hope) not failed to offer up a big <S> and comment for a job well done. This is exactly where most guys are frustrated in the game. We all realize that in some fights we draw the short straw. It's when we go out time after time and lose fights where we have alt & E and are towered in a minute if we get aggressive and ridiculed if we just buzz bomb the other guy as a "runner". Learning and mastering the "when, why and how" of moves like this are the building blocks of good MA flying.

Great clip :aok


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Offline moot

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 09:40:04 AM »
MA : DA
Chess : tic tac toe
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 09:45:45 AM »
MA : DA
Chess : tic tac toe

More like Chess and Roulette.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline moot

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2008, 09:47:47 AM »
tic tac toe is pretty much roulette, yep.
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Offline iTunes

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2008, 09:48:46 AM »
Steve is an excellent flyer in the P51, It was a pleasure flying for bit with himself and Agent the other night, 2 great guys who had some outstanding teamwork going, In that short time I learned some very valuable lessons, hope to come accross you and Agent again Steve. :)
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2008, 10:39:56 AM »
Dad I think your acting a bit clueless on this one.

We can break this game down into two major components (as it relates 2 one on one fights). We have the staged duel where both sides start from an equal footing, almost (but not always) in the same plane. Most often we think of the "best" pilot based on this criteria.

We then have the "MA" environment where a 1 on 1 is a random event with a tremendous variation in starting positions and plane types and the constant threat of interruption. This is completely different fight and requires a lot of mental agility. I cant tell you the number of times I've sat in an A-20 watching a guy with E and alt on me and waving squaadies or other friendlies off since I know the guy will be dead in 15-20 seconds. Other times I run into a real pro and know I'm a slab of tuna on a 1st date with a sushi chef after 5 seconds or so.

What makes the MA great is this uncertainty, all to often we "abuse" a pilot because of his choice of ride or ignore his skill level. While I will occasionally lose a fight to the other plane more often then not credit belongs to the pilot. When you look at the guys who've commented here you see by and large a bunch of guys widely recognized for ability and as "great fight" guys. Steve cant control who the other guy is or what he's flying, all he can do is manage the fight based on circumstance and employ the best tactics he can. Further this tactic is universally the single biggest kill harvester in the game...and suprisingly difficult to master. We all fall to it from time to time and on the flip side we all cut it to close and get "golden BB'd as well.

This is a great example of a very important aspect of +E fighting. I can kill about 80% of the pony drivers in this game one on one in an A-20. It's a select few like Steve, Skat, Chalenge, AKDG etc that can consistantly "go sushi" on me and I have never once (I hope) not failed to offer up a big <S> and comment for a job well done. This is exactly where most guys are frustrated in the game. We all realize that in some fights we draw the short straw. It's when we go out time after time and lose fights where we have alt & E and are towered in a minute if we get aggressive and ridiculed if we just buzz bomb the other guy as a "runner". Learning and mastering the "when, why and how" of moves like this are the building blocks of good MA flying.

Great clip :aok



Not sure where you were going with all of this, but if it is to explain the MA from the DA, I understand that very well.  Finding 1 on 1 's in the MA isnt difficult, and these are the ones that I enjoy more than the DA because of the uncertainty.  My Rope kill I refer to was in the MA, as well as all of them, I didnt see what the DA has to do with this discussion.

Believe me when I say, "you have trained me (us) well", I have learned many times of what not to do that gets me in the tower, and at the same time have learned what to do to and how to do it. Tactics are fluid, constantley changing and adapting to what is encountered, we have also learned to be fluid.
If anything is to be learned by your readers is, learn what not to do first, this will teach you how to take away any advantage against you, JB made a mistake and he admits it.  This is what has been pointed out, nothing more. 

Your comments are welcomed, but not warranted.  :salute

If your looking to flame, your in the wrong hole for your rabbit.  :D


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: uptown on Yesterday at 07:11:27 AM
JB64 should have never tryed to climb up to you like that to begin with. That's just asking to die.


I agree, this was simply a target of oppurtunity, you had much more E and alt. you simply took advantage of it.  It appears that JB did not intend on initially wanting to engage you, however he did nose up and misjudged your E advantage.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 10:45:16 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline humble

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 11:04:39 AM »
My comments are very much warranted in this regard...

What JB did, didnt, would or wouldnt do is not relevant in two ways...

1) Steve can only react to what JB did in fact do and if he had altered his action so would Steve. There are alot of tricks for hiding E on both sides. A lot of this is judgment related...this is a "how to" clip not a "dogfight" clip. Your basically saying "anyone could do that under those circumstances" and "you could have picked any one of a number of moves and killed the guy" {obviously paraphrasing here}. Well your wrong on both counts...

a) Presentation is everything, JB is no spring chicken and he didnt blithly fly up going gee I need a good face full of lead to wake me up. Shawk makes a living on this type of rope and its not all noobs who bite, he's gotten me more often then I'd like to admit...there is a fine line here.

b)Steve didnt pick "a move" he picked the right move and executed it perfectly. I can probably post dozens of clips where I literally am commenting on squad vox calling out a guy as "dead meat" for a minor "goof" that I know just killed him regardless of anything he chooses to do after. I also have a lot of films where I comment "I've got him now" just about 5 seconds before the sushi chef pops out and towers myoscar.

This all goes back to boscos misquided thread, in the end its all BFM. Its the when, why and how that gets you killed. How do you think the guys like me can post reasonable numbers in P-40's P-39's A-20's mossies, 110's etc. We're not picking and we're not flying with the horde and we rarely have alt, E or numbers...and god knows that the planes "we" fly arent going to do the job on their own. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Steve is a "pony ace"....take out the pony and you've got the answer. Good pilots fly solid attack profiles in all planes and pick the "right" move almost all the time. When they get fooled its because the other guy telegraphed option A and then went sushi...from the flip side when they get a guy like me (and they do) it's because they showed me they were "tuna" when they weren't.

2) If JB would have flown a different fight then Steve would have flown a different fight. Either way Steve is going to prosecute an attack. A big part of this is why the guy did what he did. He see's steve the whole way and still comes in...this is what steve is saying...I'm managing what the other guy is seeing to bring him in. Your viewing this from steves point of view in the film and going wow that was easy and the other guy was "stupid". We dont see the other side and just how "tuna" steve appeared to be.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 11:09:49 AM by humble »

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Offline mechanic

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 11:21:00 AM »
like humble says, a well timed rope is just as much 'managing the enemy's E' as it is managing your own E.
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: The Spiral rope (short film within)
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 11:25:25 AM »
My comments are very much warranted in this regard...

What JB did, didnt, would or wouldnt do is not relevant in two ways...


Its what got him set up to begin with.... very relevant.

Your viewing this from steves point of view in the film and going wow that was easy and the other guy was "stupid". We dont see the other side and just how "tuna" steve appeared to be.

I viewed the fight from both perspectives, thank you AH gods for allowing us that tool.


We can agree to disagree.  The kill was made due to a mistake on JB part.  That was the only advantage no matter what move he would have made.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 11:33:59 AM by Dadsguns »


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