Popkovs yellow 01

[TrueKill]

Greebos default and 229IAD skins are totaly different. If you go to the hanger and set your convergense and toggle between them youll see that they are. He just used his own template for both of them. I do the same with my skins and Im guessing that most other skinners do to.

[Tilt]

FYI

I am very happy Greebo is doing Yellow 01 he will make a better job than I.

I did a yellow 01 for AH1, submitted it and had it accepted but when I saw kweassa's version it was obviously better than mine. I asked Skuzzy to use Kweassa's

All default skins are available for modification from the hanger within game. (just select and click a button) In this instance Greebo had crafted the default skin. I was not using his other skins because I cannot access them (simply) this way. My challenge then was to find a pallet that added the yellow I needed whilst not wrecking the default skin.

I had done this to my satisfaction recently.

Using the default skin this way there is a compromise which Greebo (who has the original artwork) does not have to make. I rendered my modifications at 2048 x 2048 and then shrank it back to 1024 x 1024. But in using the default download I start with a 1024 x 1024 and have to double its size. Loosing some fidelity in the process.

Also I have to then add layers masking and covering some of the stuff on the original skin. Greebo only has to peel off the layers he has on his original work.

Greebo's superior skill to one side, he has the best tools and starting artwork to do the best job.

Its the same choice as before (for me).

[Shane]

not for the quibbles and bits...

the difference as i mentioned before was in markings (including the spinner color), varying slight camo adjustment(s), some fiddling with panel lines and transparencies and perhaps a bit of adjustment on the wing root scuffs.

minor stuff.

without referencing anything, from this perspective (don't forsee major changes from another perspective, maybe the bottom... maybe...) :

which one is default?

 

[TrueKill]

The one on the right is the default made by...... you guessed it greebo. The one of the left with the different colors, different marking, different camo, and different paint chiping is his 229IAD skin. That means he redid almost everything bit the panel lines, rivets, bolts, and some weathering. He used HIS template to make another skin just like he, myself and others do. It saves us hours of tedious work when we want to make two or more skins for one plane. He isn't using someone elses work and trying to pass it off as his own.


You don't get it because as far as I know you've never made a skin. So I ask you this. Spend a few dozen hours making a skin and then let me change just one thing on it and submit it like I did all the work and see how you feel about it. Until then you really don't have any thing to say because people have a right to get POed when others try to steal their hard work.


And before you say it wasn't my work being used that's right it isn't, but knowing what skinners go through to make these skins I feel its wrong what tilt was doing, and its even more wrong for someone who has never made one to come in here and try to voice his opinion.

[Shane]

The one on the right is the default made by...... you guessed it greebo. The one of the left with the different colors, different marking, different camo, and different paint chiping is his 229IAD skin. That means he redid almost everything bit the panel lines, rivets, bolts, and some weathering. He used HIS template to make another skin just like he, myself and others do. It saves us hours of tedious work when we want to make two or more skins for one plane. He isn't using someone elses work and trying to pass it off as his own.


You don't get it because as far as I know you've never made a skin. So I ask you this. Spend a few dozen hours making a skin and then let me change just one thing on it and submit it like I did all the work and see how you feel about it. Until then you really don't have any thing to say because people have a right to get POed when others try to steal their hard work.


And before you say it wasn't my work being used that's right it isn't, but knowing what skinners go through to make these skins I feel its wrong what tilt was doing, and its even more wrong for someone who has never made one to come in here and try to voice his opinion.

I can voice my opinion from an end-user perspective and opine on the legalities of your whines.

the point is, this situation is much ado about nothing.    If Tilt is using the default .bmps to work "yellow 1", then none of you have a valid complaint, merely a high signal to noise ratio whine. 

And since Tilt is, and also well within the permissions granted by HTC, I suggest you step back a little and CYA in regards to non-default skin files. 

Stop trying to make Tilt come off in a bad light - he's been anything but.

[Hwkeye]

What tilt was doing isn't breaking any laws but that doesn't make it right. Us skinners spend hours upon hours of work making our skins and for someone to do what hes doing makes it look like he has no respect for others work. If he was doing that to one of my skins I would be on the phone with HTC the second I found out about it demanding they did something about it.

But it doesn't make it wrong either.  No one, least of all Tilt (based on Tilt's comments elsewhere), wants to take away from what you and other skinners are doing.  As for the whole 'respect' issue I don't think it IS an issue but this thread has now MADE it one! 

The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted.  We know what we are doing and you don't.  Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience.  As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you.  And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."

Have I left anything out?

All you guys have is our respect.  How about trying to be inclusive and work with folks.  Try it, you might like it!

[Fencer51]

The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted.  We know what we are doing and you don't.  Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience.  As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you.  And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."

That is exactly what I thought when I started doing this back in the fall of 2005.  In fact it appears that way at times still, even to me.  So I cannot argue with you and would in fact agree to a point.  I would not personally do any of the "AH1" skins as they are bound to be replaced with new 3D models in increasing numbers.

What you do see here, if you look for it, is that people are willing to help those who put an effort forth on their own.  Read the forum, and not just post 50 questions which can be found.  I read every thread on skin creation from back when the forum was created and learned alot.  I recommend that to anyone starting skinning.

I had a couple guys who were real interested in Allied A/C who were trying hard and had alot of good questions.  I sent my basic P-51D, P-51B and P-47D40 skins complete with all layers and walked them through some of the basics and how I put things together.  I have spent some time on the phone with a couple guys talking over the basics and trying to help.  All that I asked in return was that they try and fill some of the holes in the plane set, outside of their basic interest.  I have some friends who are doing German A/C who I am sharing some of the things I have tried that have worked. 

Most skinners are not against sharing on how to do it, but most are against someone who wants to just paint a few things on top of one of their skins and call it complete.

Tilt is evidently very knowledgeable about LAs and has put effort into research, unlike alot of the first time skinners.  If he wanted to do an LA-7 I would not have any problem sharing my template with him as I have others on different aircraft.

Now will someone else do some TA152s?  Thanks!

[Greebo]

It would be nice if someone at HTC would chip in to this thread and say what their policy is on this matter. I haven't had any replies to my PMs on this issue. How much modification does someone have to do to the default, or for that matter any other skin done by another player, in order to have it accepted for online use? Can they just change the squadron code and have it accepted?

As for being reluctant to help newbies, that is not the case. I have posted in here with tutorials on panel lines, weathering etc. I have also helped out skinners with their skins, offering suggestions and even reworking parts of them myself. A couple of times I have sent my complete template to a skinner who I trusted to use it only to see how I worked. I used to post templates to AH Skins. One or two of them are still current and I have no objection to anyone using them. I went off that idea because as someone (Fester?) pointed out all templates led to was some really crappy skins with good panel lines. It also undermined skinners who did 100% of the work themselves. I posted my skin on AH skins partly to help any skinners who wanted to mine them for ideas. Not any more though.

There is never going to be much variation on an La-5FN skin. There was a standard two tone grey disruptive scheme which was altered only slightly by different factories. Even so, I make an effort to vary it a bit for every skin. The guy painting the plane in the factory was never going to 100% accurate every time. Same thing with the paint chips, a long time ago Waffle called a bunch of my skins "cookie cutter" skins. The skins had different schemes but no variation in paint chips or weathering. Ever since then I've made an effort to vary the more visible stuff a bit for every skin.

[Xasthur]

The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted.  We know what we are doing and you don't.  Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience.  As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you.  And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."

This is a fair appraisal of a lot of what happens here but there are arguments for both sides.

I don't want to be harsh but there are some absolutely rubbish skins in this game... When people post threads with half-arsed skins (not a jab at anyone here, just a general comment).... it's.... annoying, the spots for skins are very limited and seeing them crammed full of watermelon is frustrating.

The thing with starting from scratch is that it encourages you to research things. For example, I re-did the rivet layout for the 109s... There are hardly any that over-lap with the default and I spent hours pouring over books and the internet getting the best possible information on where the rivets should be and how they should have looked.

Had I not been forced to do the whole lot myself, I'd have been very happy with the default rivet positions and as such, you can see the point of a lot of people here.

Borrowing other people's work leads to sloppiness and laziness, no matter how hard you're prepared to work on the differences.

Having said that, I have had nothing but really, really useful help with any and all questions I have asked with regards to skinning, history and anything else to do with this stuff. The small group of skinners we have here are very helpful when you're making the effort.

[TrueKill]

Yep Iv helped xasthur with a few things since hes started skinning, and I have no problem helping others like him who need help getting off the ground. They come in and try, they do their research, don't ask stupid questions. The only people I don't help are those who come in here and ask "so how do I make a skin?". There are to many tutorials out there to just come in and ask that.

[Tilt]

There is never going to be much variation on an La-5FN skin. There was a standard two tone grey disruptive scheme which was altered only slightly by different factories. Even so, I make an effort to vary it a bit for every skin. The guy painting the plane in the factory was never going to 100% accurate every time.

The same could be said across both Lavochkins in game. With all due respect to the default La 7 skin and Airmesses sterling work it is now clear that infact, the default colour pallet for the default La5FN skin (or something very similar when some yellows are added)  should also be used for La7's.

[Greebo]

I've pretty much done the Popkov La-5FN. The photo below is the only known primary source for this aircraft. Studying it very carefully revealed quite a lot. The spacing of the markings can be determined by the hatches on the fuselage, the rear white stripe just touches the fuel hatch and the rear of the "0" crosses the radio hatch. The red on the kill marking stars is much darker than the red on the national insignia. The kill stars were probably freshly repainted for the photo. The area just below the canopy also looks like it has been freshly repainted, maybe it was badly chipped. The light/dark grey camo borders are a fair bit different from anything in the Pilawskii book, but I found some other photos of similarly painted La-5FNs and used them as a template for the rest of the skin.

I've taken screenshots of the skin, greyscaled it and tried to adjust the colours to match the photo. The red on the insignia has been faded and the lighter of the camo greys darkened a bit. I'm not so sure the colour of the star surrounds and tactical number was yellow. I've included screenshots of these areas in both yellow and badly faded white, both in colour and greyscaled. Both the grey scaled shots look the same and match the shade of the photo pretty well. My feeling is that it is more likely to be white, based on the fact that a profile of his plane that Popkov signed had the markings in white. However I'll go with whichever colour you prefer Tilt.

[Tilt]

Yup I know pilawskiiis book and all Osprey books show a white 01.

I would be very willing to accept that the star surrounds may be off white.

Seidls book has a forward by Popkov and a very large section on Popkovs personal history. I am sure popkov would have read that section which is across pages 174/5/6.

Here is the same picture you have on page 174 note the wording underneath.



Note the photograph source. The original is with Seidl

Here is the colour plate from the profile section.



I realise that artistic licence may have been used in the detail of the colour plate. But Knowing that Popkov helped in the research (at least to his own history) wrote the forword. I would cross reference the naming of the craft yellow 1 with the colour plate and Popkovs involvement.

Seidls book can be found here

http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Eagles-Illustrated-Schiffer-Military/dp/0764304763

[Tilt]

BTW it looks like the canopy hood has been removed for the photograph, We should be able to see the rear edge of the hood behind/at the line of the rear armoured glass

[Tilt]

Hobby vista also is/was confused.

In the section entitled

Corrections for H.Morgan's Osprey Vol.#15 Color Plates

This illustration shows Popkov's La-5FN "01". In the Winter of 1943-44 "Yellow 01" was finished originally in a solid AMT-11 livery, then was subsequently completed in the typical temperate two-color livery with AMT-12 over that. The stars on the fuselage and tail were yellow-bordered types, and the twin bands were done in white. The spinner at this time might still have been dark blue (it was this color originally), and the fin/rudder might not yet have had a white 'tab' on the tip. Popkov did indeed later fly another La-5FN numbered "01", but no useful photograph exists of this machine.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/osprey_plates.php

This is in fact pilawskii's site and as such it now suggests that the fuselage stars and numerics should be in yellow as you have shown in the full plate above.

but then in the decals section of the site he admits the following

La-5FN "Yellow 01", Vladimir Popkov, 5 GIAP, 1944:    Another erroneous attempt at Popkov's machine, probably taken from the Osprey book color plate. Popkov's aircraft was finished in a typical AMT-11/-12/-7 scheme. There is still debate over the colouration of the numerals and star trim, with the view split between yellow and dirty white. The spinner is now known to have been white, as well.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Decals/fighters_part01.html

and

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Decals/fighters_part02.html



From this I feel

1) numerics are yellow
2) star surrounds may be yellow or may be off white.
3) whether there is a guards emblem or not is unclear