Author Topic: After 9 years...  (Read 6925 times)

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23864
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2008, 10:14:21 PM »
I alt-tabed while flying so I didn't read your whole post but:

1) We're talking about a small area or arena.

I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.

See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?
See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.



Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2008, 10:28:00 PM »
I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.

See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?
See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.

I like the small numbers in the AvA.  Whatever the majority touches, it ruins.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline pluck

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2008, 11:02:48 PM »

See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.

As much fun as I think it sounds to have a different type of arena, I think it might still be difficult at times to get those "honorable" fights.  One might consider somehow moderating an arena, but then again, that requires alot of time spent by people to monitor the situation.  Even with that, there will be many grey area's regarding acceptable play.  I'm sure there would be more than a few that would be looking for just such an arena to grief.  Who knows for sure though, if it works out would be a fun place to hang.
-Vast
NOSEART
80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline hubsonfire

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8658
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2008, 11:11:49 PM »
We have an arena for Dueling. We have an arena for Axis vs Allies. We have an arena for Special Events. We have two arenas for particular periods of the war. We have two arenas with no rules for the majority. Why is anyone opposed to the idea of an additional arena specifically for air to air combat, or one for tanks? It is not up to you folks to decide, and no one's asking anyone to endorse the idea, change their outlook, or even go there. Why so many knotted panties?
mook
++Blue Knights++

Proper punctuation and capitalization go a long way towards people paying attention to your posts.  -Stoney
I was wondering why I get ignored so often.  -Hitech

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2008, 11:23:05 PM »
I still think that making start targets worth while is the key to promoting good fights.  Make things so important that they are worth defending, and fighters will come.

you mean "strat" targets.

And I agree thats part of it.
I spent 7 months away from the game.
Just got back recently after spending 7 months collecting parts for a new machine JUST so I could play this game.
Now that I can. I just dont find myself playing as much as I thought I would.

Maybe because I've played the game before. and now was looking at it from a semi outside perspective.
But within a week of comming back the reason became as obvious as the fingers on my hands.

The problem with the game is the gameplay itself has gotten or at the very least is getting stale.

I love the large maps. But really they only work well when there is no arena limit.
While I never liked the one mass furball all the time. I dont think having things so wide open due to arena number limits is good either.

But getting back to gameplay.
As I said the game play itself is getting stale.
We've had new machines to play with and BRAVO for that.
Its always good when a new plane or vehicle is added.

But the gameplay itself has changed very little.
There is little new to explore or do.
No new strategies to develop and figure out

Strat targets except for HQ are essentially meaningless.
they have next to no impact on the game so except to pad score.
There is little to no reason to attack them. And less then any reason to try to defend them.

Likewise with bridges and the rare train.
Both look cool as hell. but the bridges serve no real purpose.

you never see bridges cross an area that cant be just as easily crossed by going around them.
So there is no reason to defend these points

Cept for some tweaking Base captures essentially have remained the same as they were back in the days of Airwarrior
Pork the crap out of the field /and/or town and drop troops who simply run like little droids into the maproom.


Im not saying the game isnt any good anymore.Or that I dont enjoy playing it.
Just not nearly as much
It just isnt evolving enough.
Its becomming dated

I do have some suggestions.

Make Strat targets more of a factor. this has been way WAY overdue IMO
Reduce an ammo factory. maybe make Cannon and heavy ord  less available
Refinery maybe have more of an impact as to fuel levels when fuel is hit at a feild.
Aircraft factory/ies run them like the Spit factory setup was in Airwarrior. But for different aircraft.
Bomber factory- reduced-remove heavy bombers
Fighter factory. Remove Uber planes
vehicles.- remove uber tanks
Reduce Field radar range and add radar towers outside the bases

Tie them into the zone system so the entire country isnt effected. just that zone.
They are large enough so that one plane cant pork an entire facility
yet
That way you provide a real reason to attack and rally to these areas to defend them.
This in itself will encourage furballs away from bases. Yet will still place some importance and options on capturing bases
Leave Zone feilds as they are

The ground game
Invasion fleets
Spawn LTVs in groups of 3 like with bombers.
(the visual effect of this alone would be worth it)

Add LSTs so as to provide a way to bring lighter tanks M16's and M8s to an invasion beach. (could treat em like carriers spawn PTs Difference is they would have to be near enough land to spawn them safely)

Place Bridges over rivers waterways and ravines And make them destroyable by bombs.
Make roadways more important. Have GVs travel faster on the road then they do over terrain

Add mobile artillary

And for gods sake get rid of the arena caps. Particularly when the large maps are up.

I could probably add more if I really sat here and thought about it.

Im not stating these because I dislike the game. Idont dislike the game
But to me it has the appearence ofa game on the decline.
And I'd rather not see that happen
In fact I love the game and because I want to see it continue to succeed and get better.
To continue to evolve to become more engrossing.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline PFactorDave

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4334
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2008, 11:56:59 PM »
Just bring back the H2H.  Subscribers only, of course.  Then all these guys who have an idealized memory of what AH can/should be all about can get together and create their own perfect arena for the gameplay that they want to have.

1st Lieutenant
FSO Liaison Officer
Rolling Thunder

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2008, 12:14:08 AM »
  I think the "9 years" says it all.  I've flown a long time, and my best years were back in AW as far as the fun went. AH is alot of fun, and I imagine for those just starting, it is to them what AW was to me. I dont think its so much the game as it is the players.


 
 

~AoM~

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2008, 12:42:57 AM »
I am in no way proposing a fundamental change to the structure of the game itself, simply an opportunity to explore specific options of "tactical" game play. Here are a number of examples I'd consider...

1) Why even have 4 engine bombers in a tactical game, get rid of them.
2) Disable formations for medium bombers
3) change Hardness settings so small fields are 2x current, medium fields 4x and large fields 6x
4) perk planes enabled at large fields only
5) ack hardness is up and lethality is up
6) "easy mode" bombing is off and wind is on

I'm not looking for an arena thats "historical" or has a "campaign" and I'm not looking for a "serial duel" arena. What I want is a place that can attract a following of folks who primarily want air to air combat (or ground to ground) that has minimal appeal and/or value/impact to those who want to run "mizzuns". I don't want to take that game away from them or hinder them, I just want another option...

I do know that for at least a few hundred of us the game is somewhat stale. Yes we like the old ways and the old "rules" and at times we get upset with our selfs because we let the overall degradation of game play degrade our own view of whats "OK". I think that if you give us a place to call ours we'll populate it with decent numbers and better manners and over time a higher quality of game play will reemerge...

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Newman

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
      • http://www.327th.com/
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2008, 01:12:57 AM »
Knowing Humble for.. *more than* 9 years, joining his AH squad those many years ago, I know what he's saying.

There used to be a place.. in AH called Fighter Town. That says it all! As I remember it.. any AC with 2 engines (or less) were there, no bombs. I like that idea..

 :salute
327th Steel Talons TFS CO (ret)
CM Scenario Team (ret)

Offline Scotch

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2008, 02:13:22 AM »
I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.

Lower numbers wouldn't be a problem as there would still be more quality fights. Hell, back in the day on AOL we used to be ecstatic to have 20 people on in FR.

See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?

AVA does however have a solid core of cult followers. I think any sort of option created for "fighters" would easily have a few hundred people flying in it over the course of a day. I know of 100 people right now that would. I suppose AvA is the closest thing to what I'd like to see though it's still based around base capturing. However the limited planeset and constant low numbers (1-5 players) turns me off. I may have to spend more time in there though.

See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.

The large problem with the DA IMO is perk planes and kills landed messages still being on. I am curious to see how it would change if those were removed. And killshooter turned off. :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 02:24:28 AM by Scotch »
-AoM-

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2008, 02:31:32 AM »
here in AH I'm very surprised to realize that the game overall is markedly worse then it was when it started. That isn't an "I'm quitting" or "back in the good old days" comment. It also doesn't mean that I have any (let alone all) the answers. I know that everything the powers that be do is with the intent to make the game "better", that doesn't mean it is. The simple reality is that the game was never better then the original beta is every aspect that counted. The player base was elite, the flight model complex subtle and unforgiving and game play wasn't hampered with all the add on garbage.

I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).

Should not be too hard for HTC to setup an arena with a small map where nothing is porkable and just a few airfields one sector apart. Some of the H2H maps should do just fine. They could try it our for a few months and see if it attracts any users.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2008, 02:31:42 AM »
game play in the DA orients around "furball lake" which is artificial in the snse that its a bowl with 8k fields. As the real furballers gravitate down the real fight is at 0-3k, above that is the more E fight oriented aspect at 2-6K and above that is the guys entering the fray and the pickers. Normally a seasoned stick will enter the fight looking for an E fight vs others coming in then if victorious enter the lower level furball till time ammo and circumstance kill him or be augers. Now this is concurrent with newer and less skilled players in perk/cannon rides looking to pick the fight and constantly reupping.

In an arena with reasonable spacing you have a 1 to 2 1/2 sector flight to the fight. This helps encourage better ACM and minimizes the rinse and recycle aspect. Perk points apply for the perk rides so they are more balanced vs the DA.

I think the fact that the DA regularly out draws the AVA and EWA and often the MWA validates the idea that there is underlying interest.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2008, 07:45:30 AM »
Maybe Drop EW or MW or combine them. Start a new Arena, Make it harder to capture a base, Put in a Large city or two. Maybe hide some Factories in there. Sounds like a good Idea. I'm sure you can't make a perfect arena for all but hey why not. Not many people in EW or MW anyway.



Crims



 :aok

There is no need to combine those 2 arenas ... MW is just fine the way it is.

It doesn't take much for HTC to create another "arena" ... so there is no need to combine any arenas.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2008, 07:46:14 AM »
Id rather a large map in Lw than Mw.. as you said.. big map + MW = utter sheet  :lol

MW does not use "large" maps.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23864
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: After 9 years...
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2008, 07:53:57 AM »
Lower numbers wouldn't be a problem as there would still be more quality fights. Hell, back in the day on AOL we used to be ecstatic to have 20 people on in FR.

AVA does however have a solid core of cult followers. I think any sort of option created for "fighters" would easily have a few hundred people flying in it over the course of a day. I know of 100 people right now that would.

I'm not arguing that. There is more than pure numbers that can make up "success", my comments in that direction where more aimed at some (in my opinion exaggerated)  how many players would such an arena attract in the long run.


The large problem with the DA IMO is perk planes and kills landed messages still being on. I am curious to see how it would change if those were removed. And killshooter turned off. :)

I'm not sure if perk planes are such a big part of the problem. In the MA's I found player behaviour based on players, not on planes ;). But I tend to agree that eliminating landed kill messages in DA would be a good measure to get this arena back to what it usually was intended for.
And regarding Kill Shooter - Unfortunately it was switched on by HTC because without it DA didn't work at all anymore :(
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman