Tiffy Roll Rate

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:


The N1K2 doesn't have that proble.  It is a 5800lb aircraft with a 1900hp engine, it is going to do some incredible manuevers.

Um, other then some microfilm library index card teasers, WHAT data has been checked on the N1K2-J? I do not recall this, other then basic power to weight, wing loading, etc. calculations.

I'd love to see something on it's airfoil preformence, clean and CF's deployed. Brute force doesn't always justify a bad airfoil.  

<anal mode>

Its at high speeds were the powered ailerons, overcame high stick forces, that gave the L model a superior roll rate.

YOKE. YOKE. YOKE.  

</anal>

The ultimate reason behind boosted ailerons in the later P-38's was not sole force that had to be excerted to turn the yoke, but the combination of force needed to turn the yoke AND pull it back. In other words, the harder you tried to turn it, the less force you could excerte backwards, due to the nature of the yoke.

Coordination and all that. Bomber pilots had this the worst. Yokes do offer better leverage then sticks as far as roll axis is concerned, but it is VERY difficult to coordinate both control axis' at high speed/forces.  

Added smilies. It did look rather anal without them.

[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 05-30-2001).]

[SageFIN]

Manedew, actually the same NACA report that brought up the question of the Typhoon's roll rate indicates that the AH 190 does roll too poorly. Also IIRC the Spits were lacking in roll ability a little (was it high or low speed roll, can't remember...). Also the Zero has a bit better roll rate than what was mentioned in the document.

I bet there are many different sources other than the NACA report too and might have better data. Or worse.

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SageFIN

"It´s your god.
They´re your rules.
You go to hell."
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[Vulcan]

Heres how bad it went too:
Roll a tiffie with 2 x 1000lbers, climb a bit. Drop 1. You'll find the tiffie cannot hold level trim sub 240kias.

[Manedew]

See vulcan understands  

[Kingonads]

Sage

 I belive the A6M5 Rei-san <zero> was the best roll rate zero they made it was the later version and one of the last models of the plane that did not start adding armor and other non-needed weight to the dogfighter.  The zero was made to be a CV multi-role fighter it had a really good roll rate at lower speeds but suffered at higher speeds (280-340) it lost almost all roll rate at above 380 and a 400 which was the desiegn limit on dive speed it would shake and more than likely not pull out of a dive.
I think HTC had the zero a little too slow fo the game but it I will not compain to much because a great many of the planes R slower in the game than in RL


                        Hodo

[funked]

King I think you are confusing it with the A6M3.

[Jekyll]

I haven't adjusted the Tiffie roll rate on my chart to reflect the differences in 1.07, but to give you an idea just how much too fast the 1.06 and previous Tiffies rollrate was ......

 

And Manedew, note the Typhoon's rollrate at 350 IAS.  At about 35 degrees/sec it should take a Typhoon more than 10 seconds to complete a full aileron roll.  I suspect the current Typhoon rollrate is STILL too fast to match NACA data.

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Jekyll
"Anything else is just a game"  

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 05-31-2001).]

[MANDOBLE]

Jekyll, great work, but your graph is a total mess due colors. Perhaps a better way is to draw NACA as solid and AH as doted lines, same color in both lines per plane, and very different colors per each plane.
As far as I'm able to see at that graph, AH Spit has its roll rate wide "overclocked" from medium to hi speeds (we dont have clipped wings Spits in AH). And the same for Zeke from lo to medium speeds. Hey!!! In fact all the planes seem overcloceck with the absurd exception of 190, it is uderclocked  
If AH compensates that way the only real defense of 190A8... ....well... no comments...

[AcId]

I wonder if the large differences in roll rate between NACA and AH are intentional.

[Kingonads]

no funked I think I have the right plane in aspects of the speed and dive charecteristics they didnt change to drasticly from the M3 model to the M5 model the only major difference in the 2 were the gun mounts and the fuel tanks, in the A6M5 model they had self seeling tanks in he M3 model they didnt add them to save weight.  and as for the guns it was just that the M3 had 2 7mm MGs in the cowl and the usual 20mm cannons in the wings.

                              Hodo

[Vulcan]

If thats true then I suspect NACAs data is wrong. The tiffie has CoG-trimming problems with various loadouts (including DTs at sub180kias). These were not problems in r/l.

Nobody in reports I see mention the tiffie as being THAT bad  

 

Originally posted by Jekyll:
And Manedew, note the Typhoon's rollrate at 350 IAS.  At about 35 degrees/sec it should take a Typhoon more than 10 seconds to complete a full aileron roll.  I suspect the current Typhoon rollrate is STILL too fast to match NACA data.

[Jigster]

The M3 had clipped wings. It rolled faster then the A6M5 or M2 at basically all speeds.

That particular chart is probably for an A6M2 anyway, which doesn't show its roll rate before 200mph, where it is generally better then most of the US planes anyway. However the A6M2 had aileron problems exceeding 200mph and aileron lock around 280, with the exception of turning into the direction of engine torque, basically due to the size and positioning of the ailerons. They are alot like bomber ailerons, that extend for more then half the wing, and become very stiff at any excessive speeds.

What's weird and stuff, is the N1K2 uses the same basic aileron configuration and airfoil. But oh well.  

[Vulcan]

That NACA stuff has gotta be outta whack. The Tiffie performs like a Zeke, but the aileron setup is nothing like a zeke - and the tiffie was designed to be a high speed fighter. I'd expect the tiffie to be more like a Jug (or slightly below), which probably is closer to the current setup.

[StSanta]

The 190 rolls too slowly! Fix it!  


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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[GRUNHERZ]

THe Typhoon was rejected as an air to air fighter due to its lack of agility and high alt perfomance. A great big part of that agility problem was its horribly unacceptable roll rate and poor overall flying characteristics. It was a very immature/compromised design that wasnt all fixed and made right until the Tempest which was a kick-ass plane.
 
To all the tiffie guys you basically had an incorrectly modeled plane that left out one of its greatest faults, now u guys gotta bite the bullet and learn to fly with a more correct FM. IMHO this is no different than the changes to the Fw190 A5 FM that corrected some of its poorly modeled features several months ago.