Author Topic: Engine flush? Sure why not!  (Read 1989 times)

Offline rabbidrabbit

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Engine flush? Sure why not!
« on: November 12, 2008, 10:39:13 PM »
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/flushservices.html


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Offline CAP1

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 11:39:53 PM »
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/flushservices.html


Life is full of people who have no standards.


Why? Over time, gummy deposits can build up inside your engine. The chemicals used for engine flush, are supposed to break up those deposits. But car-makers say, pieces of that broken up sediment can clog up other parts of the engine and ruin it.

in specifically, the deposits, and sludge that the flush breaks up, makes its way down to the oil pan. it then proceeds to clog up the oil pump pickup screen, thus causing a loss of oil pressure.

 the very first thing they were saying wrong in their article, though, was calling these schmucks "technicians". they are oil changers. period. they're one step above the burger flipper at macdonalds. they don't even rate as a mechanic.

 jiffy lubes, and such places, offer cheap prices for a reason. they pay their help poopoo for wages, and they upsell upsell upsell.
 i've never believed in engine flushes. if you keep your oil changed properly, at the recommended intervals, with the correct viscosity oil, your engine should never need this service.
 in the case of the hondas, the transmission flush they mentioned is bad. most of them have drain plugs. simply drain out the old, and add in the new.

 i hate jiffy lube. they make us all look bad, and calling their gus technicians makes those of us that really ARE techs. look bad too.

BTW......good article!!

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Offline DiabloTX

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 12:20:36 AM »
It's not what you take your car to but who you take your car to.  To bang out my oil changes and do my state inspections I take my ride to a Jiffy quick place only because I know the owner, he's a guy in my father in law's circle of friends.  If I didn't know him I'd be taking it to the old Mercedes repair shop I used to manage.  Do your oil changes on time and in the proper mileage and you won't need an "engine flush"...unless your Beat1e then you do whatever the manual says, like 20,000 between changes.
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Offline Xasthur

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 07:21:32 AM »
Use correct oil and build up will be minimised.

Change your own oil every 5k KMs and you'll be fine.

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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 08:54:18 AM »
Actually stuff does get collected in the engine despite oil changes. Especially if you use mineral oils instead of synthetic like we euros do.

I used to have an old Toyota. When I opened the valve cover I could dig literally spoonfuls of black gunk from every nook and cranny of the cylinder head. Every place where the oil could pool up was filled with sediment.

Back in those days mineral oils were still common even here.
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 08:55:51 AM »
One thing that always amazed me - is that when I look at an airplane engine, i'm in the zone and know what I am looking at and can work around it to figure out what is going on. With a car, I feel like a dog watching TV. But if you forget to properly torque a through-bolt on a car - its no big deal. Maybe it'll kill you. On an airplane, it'll most definitely ruin your day. So why is it auto mech's take home after insurance is double to triple that of an aircraft guy?


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Offline Race

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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 09:36:21 AM »
One thing that always amazed me - is that when I look at an airplane engine, i'm in the zone and know what I am looking at and can work around it to figure out what is going on. With a car, I feel like a dog watching TV. But if you forget to properly torque a through-bolt on a car - its no big deal. Maybe it'll kill you. On an airplane, it'll most definitely ruin your day. So why is it auto mech's take home after insurance is double to triple that of an aircraft guy?

Thats easy.....

1. Time crutch.....every jobs a rush done right the first time. Moms not waiting on her 172 to pick up the kids from soccer. I know you guys cant take all week but the time is a little different.

2. Quality of work enviroment....grease, oil, coolant and whatever else you can think under some of these cars. When have you seen an airframe shop look like a some of these shops

3. Warranties...cant tell you how many free brake jobs I have done. The warranties on some of these repairs is lifetime....parts AND labor.

4. Multi-tasking...inspect, diagnois, estimate, order parts, disassemble, clean, reassemble, verify, and road test. Sounds easy enough until you have 3-4 cars in various stages. Did I mention you have 3 hours to do 6 hours worth of labor?

5. Long hours....50-60 hours a week no overtime pay and nights.

    Some mechanics dont have to deal with all of this but alot do. Just about any of the big repair chains operate along these lines. Is the A/P mechanics job more important from a safety stand point? Except for a few repairs this is absolutely true. Are they under paid? Definitely! The above is an explanation of why auto mechanics are paid well in my opinion.

To the original poster,
      Flush services are great when done professionally on select vehicles. Juniors 100,000 chevy pickup that gets an oil change every 15,000 miles is not one of them. On newer cars with a good maintence record you can see benifits. Usually we look for sludge and decline service for the reasons above. Only the oil really suffers from this as the others dont gum up fairly often. Its like alot of other things....good when done right.

Race

 
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 09:46:24 AM »
Actually stuff does get collected in the engine despite oil changes. Especially if you use mineral oils instead of synthetic like we euros do.

I used to have an old Toyota. When I opened the valve cover I could dig literally spoonfuls of black gunk from every nook and cranny of the cylinder head. Every place where the oil could pool up was filled with sediment.

Back in those days mineral oils were still common even here.


i've had customers that had that problem with their old fords and chevys. they weren't very good at keeping on schedule with oil changes though.
 i've owned fords, chevys, dodges, and technically a toyota(93 geo prism). all the fords and chevys were v8's, one of the dodges was a slant 6. never had any sludge buildup problems on any of em. the geo doesn't either. everything was over 100k miles, except for my 89 mustang.

 if you use common sense, and keep the oil changed, when you;re supposed to, it won't happen. unless you're beetle, then you can go 20k and it still won't(friggin can't believe i agree with diablo)  :rofl

 a friend of mine has a 93 ls400. it has 310k or so on it. he uses plain old motor oil. it's clean as a whislte inside.
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Offline Speed55

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »
"Careful-careful-careful. Those "engine flush" compounds you can find at the auto parts store can do a tremendous amount of damage.

I have long maintained that your engine is not a toilet (Chevrolet Vega, Cadillac HT4100 and V8-6-4, and Ford 3.0 owners excepted) and therefore does not need flushing except under specific and rare conditions as a corrective measure. Everyone's got a pet theory on how best to flush a crudded-up engine without pulling the pan. Some methods are harmless but ineffective. Some methods are potentially harmful. Some methods are harmless and effective. For best results, pick one of that last kind.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a safe, effective and fast engine flush procedure. You can pick any two of these three: Safe and effective (but not fast), safe and fast (but not effective), effective and fast (but not safe). The risks fall into two categories:
Softening/damaging engine gaskets and seals so they don't seal well any more
Sweeping large amounts of dirt and crud from its resting place into the oil filter, which plugs and goes into bypass mode, sending the cräp directly to the bearings and quickly failing the engine. I watched this happen to a Chev 305 once. It was quite a spectacle.


Those "5-minute engine flush" compounds mostly contain Butyl Cellosolve,
which is a specialized solvent that's very good at one particular task: Cleaning the mayonnaise out of a crankcase that's had coolant in it due to a faulty head (etc.) gasket. Their use in any other situation is risky.

My own engine flush recipe is a delicious blend of Marvel Mystery Oil (very light weight and good at dissolving gums and sludges), Kroil (best penetrant on the planet), ATF (detergent/dispersant with good lubricity), and Berryman B12 ChemTool (good at dissolving crud too tough for Marvel Mystery Oil). My procedure involves warming up the engine, draining the oil, changing the oil filter, replacing the drain plug (!), and pouring in the soup. For a 5-quart crankcase, I usually start with 1/1/2/1 (Marvel/Kroil/ATF/B12). Then start and run the engine in the driveway at around 1200 to 1700 RPM with no sudden acceleration and no load applied, for 15 minutes.

Shut down, drain (really let it drain, walk away for 45 minutes), change the filter again, repeat with new soup for 30 to 45 minutes depending how gross the first batch of soup was when it was drained and how quickly the second batch of soup cruds up. Check the dipstick periodically.

If the 2nd batch of soup comes out coalmine black and full of chunks, run in another batch of soup (and another new filter!) and repeat until chips, chunks and tar stop coming out when you drain it.

You'll note the filter is replaced before any attempt is made to introduce a flushing agent into the crankcase, and the filter is replaced again every time you drain a batch of flushing soup. Without doing this, you run the very real risk of inundating the filter, which will go into bypass mode and send all the loosened-up crud directly to the bearings and other critical parts: Goodbye, engine, it was nice gnawing you.

I've gotten amazing amounts of corruption and trash out of engines using this recipe and method. Other methods and other recipes may work better
for other people with other cars. And as always, be advised that if the engine is really tired and whipped, even a safe flush can cause additional problems in the form of "new" leaks."

From a bb i frequent, but this is for a slant six engine.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 09:48:57 AM »
One thing that always amazed me - is that when I look at an airplane engine, i'm in the zone and know what I am looking at and can work around it to figure out what is going on. With a car, I feel like a dog watching TV. But if you forget to properly torque a through-bolt on a car - its no big deal. Maybe it'll kill you. On an airplane, it'll most definitely ruin your day. So why is it auto mech's take home after insurance is double to triple that of an aircraft guy?

yaknow what dude.......

i was hanging out in the maintenance hangar at our local flying club a couple weeks ago. i've been in that club for about 3 years.....and for the first time noticed that franks labor ratye was only $54/hour. i nearly fell over. i STILL can't imagine how or why avaition techs charge less than we do.
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Offline Race

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 10:01:49 AM »
      Most auto shops get 80-100 bucks an hour. As a service writer and a mechanic I have felt quilty at times. I am honest but the mark up is outrageous. The engine flushes cost the companies one or two dollars and most people pay ten to fifteen! Any part under a 100 is double to the customer. Freon costs $3.00 a pound and is usually sold for 2.99 an OUNCE! Another ripoff is wheel alignments. Most get the "toe and go" treatment at alot of shops. Whenever possible I try to do a geniune alignment but sometimes the boss says no. Most people wont even try to set camber or caster. Honesty.....is not rampant in the auto service industry. There are 100% honest shops out there and if you can find em they are wonderful to work for or with.

Race
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 10:28:54 AM »
      Most auto shops get 80-100 bucks an hour. As a service writer and a mechanic I have felt quilty at times. I am honest but the mark up is outrageous. The engine flushes cost the companies one or two dollars and most people pay ten to fifteen! Any part under a 100 is double to the customer. Freon costs $3.00 a pound and is usually sold for 2.99 an OUNCE! Another ripoff is wheel alignments. Most get the "toe and go" treatment at alot of shops. Whenever possible I try to do a geniune alignment but sometimes the boss says no. Most people wont even try to set camber or caster. Honesty.....is not rampant in the auto service industry. There are 100% honest shops out there and if you can find em they are wonderful to work for or with.

Race

i'm one of them. i don't sell alignments....partly because i've always hated doing them, partly because i know they're a sham...on newer cars anyway. when i replace struts, i use an old snap on camber guage. i take a reading before i disassemble, then when putting the new one back in, i match the reading. i never charge to align afterwards, as i don't feel "right" doing that. same when i replace tie rods.... i simply check toe before, and match it afterwards. never had a complaint, and never had any bad tire wear caused by these.
 my labor rate is $80.00. for good customers, i knock $10.00 off that. i don't and won't sell engine flushes, although i do believe in transmission fluid services(ESPECIALLY ON THE FORD OD TRANSMISSIONS), and i do believe in the "motorvac" fuel injection services. when the shop i used to work at first got a motorvac machine, we gave the service awa to a few customers. they all came back reporting better mileage, and performance. the fuel injector cleaner ya dump in the tank......bah!

 generally, when  used to run that shop, i treated everyone on the other side of the counter as a friend. now that i own the place, i still do. my customers never feel like customers, but rather they feel like friends, and that's what i like it to be like. i do my best ti stay honest with everyone, and my customers all tell their friends that too.

 hopefully my honesty will keep me in business.

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Offline Race

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 10:43:11 AM »
CAP1,
    I wouldnt say a proper alignment is a sham but on newer cars there is just less adjustments. Some cars still have caster/camber adjustments. The flushes I think I agree with you one....there are great services out there that really benifit the customer. I was in the habit of giving free oil changes away just to look at people cars during off season. A shop I used to work for did really well for 5-6 years until there pool dried up from dishonest practices giving the shop a bad name in the area. I <S> your bussiness practices and hope it will keep you steady  thru this drought we are having

Race
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Offline Fulmar

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 12:51:45 PM »
What about alignments after a new set of tires are put on?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Engine flush? Sure why not!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 01:11:19 PM »
What about alignments after a new set of tires are put on?

MOST NEW  cars don't really need anything more than a toe and go, as mentioned by race. very few still have caster and camber settings.
 if i replaced the tires, due to a wear problem, then i absolutley will do a complete alignment.


i had a 1967 mustang a few weeks ago. the guy and his kid called me, told me what the car was doing, and i scheduled it.....they brought it in. their home was about 8 miles from my shop. i went to test drive it, made it to the very first driveway down the road, and turned around. i have no clue how this guy drove this car.

 i put the car up, and looked under, and saw the entire front end was new.
 it was sooo far out of whack that my alignment computer wouldn't take any readings till i got it close. i had to use my toe bar, and my snap on caster/camper guage. b y the time i finished, i didn't even bother to hook up the computer to it. the car ended up driving perfectrly straight, and the guy was happy.

 
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