Could the Me-262..

[glock89]

Break the sound barrier? I have this magazine and show a model of a Me-262A1 and the pilot who Hans-Guido Mutke said to break the sound barrier with this plane? Dose any one know if this is true?

[Lusche]

Ahh, the old Mutke story.

Short answer: No - the plane wasn't aerodynamically able to do that.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml

[glock89]

Oh thank you for that when i saw that i was WTF .

[Charge]

I'd say that it is possible that Mutke did break the sound barrier but it is only a fluke that he was still alive to tell about it - as well it is possible that he didn't. Speed indication and loss of control do not mean that he did, however.

So to be a bit more specific there was probably nothing in the design of 262 that would prevent getting to Mach 1 in favourable conditions but aerodynamically it could not do that in controlled flight.

Nice article but it does not cover if the drag of the aircraft would prevent the a/c from reaching Mach 1, only that the instrumentation could not be trusted to give correct indication of speed and that control was not possible, both which are certainly true.

Anyway, Mutke was lucky to be in a plane that could hold together at those speeds and to have a fully movable elevator.

-C+

[Angus]

I have heard claims from 51 pilots that they did push the control surfaces through the barrier, i.e. loosing control and regaining at higher speed.
However that is the airspeed over the wing and/or tailplane, NOT the airspeed of the aircraft itself....

[Race]

Isnt it quite possible that they were in the transonic region?

Even at speeds as low as .85 mach its possible to have Mach flow over some wings.

Race

[Cthulhu]

Isnt it quite possible that they were in the transonic region?

Even at speeds as low as .85 mach its possible to have Mach flow over some wings.

Race

Of course it is. What do you think compressibility is? Local shock waves over the surface of the aircraft, typically the upper surface of the wing.

Edit: Sorry Race, didn't want that to sound like I was talking down to you. Your comment is absolutely correct.

[Die Hard]

All WWII fighters could get into compressibility (some more controlled than others). However, local supersonic flow is not the same as supersonic flight. The aircraft itself is not flying faster than sound.

I have seen nothing that makes me believe the 262 cannot achieve Mach 1 in a dive, nor have I seen any credible evidence that it did. I've heard many say that the fuselage of the 262 is too think to allow supersonic flight, but that is bull. Some business jets have broken the sound barrier by accident, and the Boeing 727-31 TWA flight 841 which went supersonic in an accidental dive in 1979. On August 21, 1961 a Douglas DC-8 broke the sound barrier at Mach 1.012 in a controlled dive through 41,088 feet. So it is certainly possible that the 262 did so too.

[MiloMorai]

What was the name of that American fighter that had to be redesigned because it couldn't reach Mach 1 despite being powered by a J57 engine of 17,000lb thrust? Oh yes, the F-102.

[Die Hard]

What was the name of that American fighter that had to be redesigned because it couldn't reach Mach 1 despite being powered by a J57 engine of 17,000lb thrust? Oh yes, the F-102.

Get your facts straight. The YF-102 flew supersonic in level flight but it was below the design goal. In a dive it would be able to reach Mach 1 with the engine idling. Even now a Frenchman is preparing to skydive supersonically by parachuting from a balloon with a special aerodynamic suit.

[jerkins]

I dont think the engine of the 262 would like supersonic flight.

Subsonic jet engines work by compressing the air, igniting it, and that air if forces through a turbine on a shaft that runs back to the compressor.  At these subsonic speeds, the air is forced faster through small spaces, much like putting your thumb over the end of a hose.

Supersonic jet engines work differently. At supersonic speeds, the air acts completely opposite of subsonic speeds.  The air will actually slow down and pile up through a narrowed region instead of speeding up and forcing its way through.  The air needs to be slowed down before reaching the compressor.  Early jet engines did this by incorporating a point coming from the center of the compressor ahead of the engine inlet.  As the air hit this point, it piled up on itself and slowed to a subsonic speed.  This air was then put through the engine.  New supersonic engines do not include a compressor, they simply narrow the inlet gradually.  This narrowing compresses the air and then it is combusted. 

From a jet engine standpoint the plane could not do it.  Maybe in a dive, but the engines themselves would cause huge amounts of drag (air piling up). and would add no additional thrust. 

I think it could probably hit the transonic range.

[Delirium]

I have this magazine and show a model of a Me-262A1 and the pilot who Hans-Guido Mutke said to break the sound barrier with this plane?

No, the only thing that breaks the speed of sound around here is your ability to hit 'reply' and 'post', numerous times in succession.

[Die Hard]

I dont think the engine of the 262 would like supersonic flight.

Subsonic jet engines work by compressing the air, igniting it, and that air if forces through a turbine on a shaft that runs back to the compressor.  At these subsonic speeds, the air is forced faster through small spaces, much like putting your thumb over the end of a hose.

Supersonic jet engines work differently. At supersonic speeds, the air acts completely opposite of subsonic speeds.  The air will actually slow down and pile up through a narrowed region instead of speeding up and forcing its way through.  The air needs to be slowed down before reaching the compressor.  Early jet engines did this by incorporating a point coming from the center of the compressor ahead of the engine inlet.  As the air hit this point, it piled up on itself and slowed to a subsonic speed.  This air was then put through the engine.  New supersonic engines do not include a compressor, they simply narrow the inlet gradually.  This narrowing compresses the air and then it is combusted. 

From a jet engine standpoint the plane could not do it.  Maybe in a dive, but the engines themselves would cause huge amounts of drag (air piling up). and would add no additional thrust. 

I think it could probably hit the transonic range.

Boeing reports that the Boeing 747 broke the sound barrier during certification tests. A China Airlines 747 almost certainly broke the sound barrier in an unplanned descent from 41 000 feet to 9500 feet after an in-flight upset on 19 February 1985.



If this thing can break the sound barrier in a dive...

[Greebo]

Not really. A 747 has more sweep on its wings which will allow it a far higher critical mach number than a 262. Wing section is probably better too. Also it has an all flying tail, which will allow it better control in the transonic region.

[Die Hard]

Critical Mach and controllability is irrelevant. We are not talking about a controlled dive here. And the 262 did have a flying tail for trim (same as the 109). There is no reason why the 262 shouldn't be able to reach Mach 1 in a "suicide dive". Hell, even the Spitfire reached Mach 0.9 in a test dive, though the prop and reduction gear fell off and the wings were bent backwards.