OSTWIND (what did you DO to it?)

[gijeff]

Salute Gents,

I can't be the only one to notice that since the last update the ostwind which used to actually be able to hit things once in awhile, is suddenly shooting a shotgun like pattern of shells with no particular accuracy at all.  I see shells being fired in an ever expanding cone of fire, instead of straight, which it used to do.  What the heck?  If any anti-aircraft gun shot like that it would never see service.  I just recently in the MA shot at an M3 headed for A1.  I stopped and fired 100+ rounds at this M3 at relatively close range (less than 1k) and watched EVERY ONE miss, impacting in front, beside, and behind the vehicle in spite of the fact that my gun never moved.  With accuracy like this it is amazing to me anyone hits GROUND targets, let alone AIRPLANES!  This is definitely a step backwards imho.

Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff

[Vulcan]

Gijeff its a symptom of finger stuck on the fire button syndrome.

If you use short bursts then you'll have no problems. And technically this makes things a bit more accurate. I seriously doubt Ostwinds were able to fire 1000 rounds non-stop in R/L, things like barrel heat, recoil, reloading ammo, etc would have slowed it down.

I've found the Ostie way better, racking up big kill scores in it easily now.

[gijeff]

S! Vulcan,

Try again dude, I know you are trying to be helpful, but I have been racking up scores in the ostie for some time now and it has definitely been disimproved in some way.  I am not exactly a newbie to GV's in the MA, having a ranking of below 100 every recent rotation in them.  Something has been done to the Ostwind making it VERY much less accurate  than it used to be, and I for one see it as a BIG step backwards.

Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff

[Tuomio]

The ostwind is harder now. Before the 1.07 the ostwind fired straight and was easily tricked to fire too low or too high. Now its impossible to approach straight to it while its firing to you, couse the dispersion. I get always killed nowdays if i fly even near an ostie thats shooting at me.

With the small guns that can be a problem, couse you need lots of pings to hurt a plane. Thats in every ways realistic, since the single AA MG:s have always opposed only minimal threat to fighters.

[hogfarmr]

GIJEFF,
The osty now fires the first 3 or so shots like normal but then if you keep firing the shots start to spred. i like it like this. seems if you cant hit something in the first few shots your better off having it spred fire around for you.
i think HT did this to keep the ostys from kill an entire fields acks in 2 minutes and killing panzers from over 2k. niether of those are very realistic to its real performance.
-AKHog

[Vulcan]

Well Gijeff, seems the gods were listeninng  

Check the news section on osties.

[gijeff]

Salute Gents,

Well the gods may have been listening but the change is both insufficient and unnoticable, it is still pure luck to hit anything in the ma with an ostie, even if they are coming right at you.  I have much experience in the ostie and have NEVER used even half the ammo to get many kills, today I used ALL the ammo and got only one lucky hit.  Till they fix it I won't be upping in one.  All you can do is watch, firing is just a plecebo.  Hell, I couldn't even hit the stupid bomber hangar from 1k out with any consistency.  Hope they didn't do that to the other GV's or they are all off my list.

Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff

[Kingonads]

GIjeff, I dont mean to rain on your Ostie parade but, have U ever fired a large caliber autocannon in RL they R only acurate for about the first 2 seconds of a long burst then the recoil of the weapon begins to throw the barrel and the shot group everywhere in GODs greeen creation.  I have been on a M2 Blazer Bradley AA IFV for a couple of years and I have fired live rounds at moving and flying targets it is not that easy with todays tech. and a 25mm cannon with a 450-650 round a minute rate of fire.  Now imagine what it was like with a 37mm cannon with less tech. in stabilazation and fire control, hmmm U might if U R lucky be able to put 1/3 of your rounds on target with a long burst on a moving target, god help U if it flys with any kinda speed.  I know for one I welcome the changes to the Osty I got tired of being "sniped" in a panzer or flying 3k off of the ground with a long burst that is dead acurate every round. Now that I have said my part I expect to get a few replies from self proclaim experts on anti-aircraft gun acuracy in WWII, and have never fired a larger caliber gun in their natural and unnatural life.


                     Hodo

[Ripsnort]

HODO, I believe GIJeff drove tanks for a living in the US Army for a stint.

[DamnedATC]

Has anyone noticed the Field gunner postions are now not effective anymore?  Ostie still works but the manable field guns are basically worthless?

ATC

[Nexus]

Kingonads,

Well you asked for it.

I AM a WWII vet. I was a gunner chief on an Ostwind. I have 254 kills to my credit.

Not only could the Ostwind fire continuously and acurately, but it could hit a target up to 1 mile away - at night... in the fog.

The Ostwind view modeling in this game is entirely inaccurate. The German's added F3 external view to all Ostwinds in late March of '43. That's a well known fact.

And if you want to know any thing about Nam, I was an infantry man and an F4 Phatom pilot too.

Oh yah, I was also at the first Woodstock, where I played bass guitar with Jethro Tull.

I was there, man. I know my chit. I saw it with my own eyes, man.

Peace and love

Nexus
<snicker>

[Kingonads]

LOL at nexus good one,


 But Rip,  Driveing tanks for the army and being a anti-aircraft gunner on a Bradley is "T"-totaly different.  I have freinds who R 19K's and they can back me up on the fact that the 120mm Reign metal gun on the M1A1, A2 models is no way shape or form like fireing a 25mm on a Bradley.


                  Hodo

[gijeff]

Salute Gents,

Klingonads, what the hell are you talking about?  The bradley fighting vehicle is an anti-armor/infantry fighting vehicle as far as I know, and the current military doctrine in the US ARMY is NOT to engage aircraft from armored vehicles that are not specifically AAA designated.  This is due to the fact that planes are so fast now (spelled JET) that if you SEE him and you are still alive, either he didn't see you, or he is outta ordinance.  If you fire some miniscule bullets (with the attendant TRACERS) at him all you are going to do is call attention to yourself in an otherwise previously un-noticed position.

I tried looking up some unheard of variant of the bradely on Janes and had no joy so I cannot confirm a possible AAA variant of the vehicle, but I can assure all of you that the 25mm bushmaster cannon on the bradleys I have seen can't even traverse above 45 degrees of deflection, i.e. can't point up.  This cannon is designed for dealing with lightly armored vehicles like the BMP, or BRDM, and possibly gun emplacements or foxholes, NOT for shooting at aircraft, which it has neither the rate of fire, nor the punch to hit (i.e. proximity fused AAA in a large enough caliber to hurt the thing).  If memory serves it used depleted uranium shells.  It also can't do much to a main battle tank, hence the dual TOW missile launchers on the side of the turret of the bradley.

Most AAA vehicles these days are armed with MISSILES not cannon, or at least a minigun or other chain gun with such a high rate of fire that you might actually HIT a jet and those are radar guided, not sighted weapons.  I know of no cannon based AAA units in the current inventory with anything smaller than a 40mm bofors, similar to ack cannon in that it uses proximity fused shells, and those are radar guided as well.  The US ARMY assumes air superiority over the battlefield so AAA vehicles are not prevalent, just enough so if one or two sneaks by our fighters we can deal with him.

I would also make the point that firing a 25mm cannon on a 13 ton or better vehicle is unlikely to cause much jumping due to recoil.  The sheer weight of the vehicle would absorb any amount of recoil from that little popgun, and since it is mounted it ain't moving around much.  Hell the 105mm M68 cannon on the M60 doesn't even move the tank, just rocks it a bit, and it comes right back to where you left it.

Furthermore, comparing modern vehicles to WW2 vehicles is unlikely to yeild any resonable comparison, they are simply too different.  The Flak Panzer was VERY heavy and pretty well armored for a AAA unit.  Unfortunately they forgot to put the top on the turret (heh) so I consider that the 37mm cannon would possibly rock the vehicle slightly causing some reticle shake, but by the time the next round was fired it would have resumed it's previous position.  

I do agree with you on one thing though Klingonads... Firing the _105_mm cannon ( and I was a GUNNER, not a driver) on the M60A-3 main battle tank is in no way similar to shooting that little mousegun they put on the bradley, I can actually KILL stuff with the 105.

Maybe since I don't post that much people think I have little experience with this game.  FYI I flew this game when it first came out, was around when the panzers and M16's first came out, and had a helluva good time using the ostie when it first came out.  I am also a member of the Aces High Training Corps.  

I might also mention a recent trend of hitting LIGHTLY armored vehicles like the M3 in the MA and them NOT dying.  Now I know a 37mm he would PULVERIZE a half track with a hit almost anywhere.  I recently hit an M3 point blank with no less than three rounds and he just drove by me and dropped troops at the maproom.  The lethality of the .50 cals on the vehicles is bothersome as well, since the M3 was able to detrack me and then KILL me in a heavily armored Ostie.  Now I can see him taking out the turret in the ostie with well placed rounds to the top of it, or even taking out a track with enough bullets, but KILLING an ostie with a single .50?  Ridiculous.

Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff

[Kingonads]

OK GIJeff let me start by saying we agree on one thing the 105mm and the 120mm is nothing like fireing the 25mm. Now thats as far as it goes,  as for there being no Bradley AA veh. wrong I was stationed in Korea with 5/5 ADA B battery and we had Blazer-Bradleys as they R called they R not intended to attk jets but to engage slow moving target like atk helos and other such aircraft it has a couple of minor modifications like a higher elevation and a higher rate of fire although U wouldnt notice it, it also carries 4 stinger missiles where the TOW launcher is.  So if U would like to step into the army of the 21st century I will gladly keep U up to date on modern US military equiptment.  Now that I have said my piece. if U want source matterial U can find it in JANE's tank recognition guide page 207under variants.

   Oh and one more thing I did not mean that the 37mm would cause the whole track to rock but just the the gun would rock in its mount, like the 25mm does it is in there tight but still moves the gun a bit and thats Y U have to bore sigght it every so often and so forth and so forth I am sure U understand the maintance side of the house for a track.


                  Hodo

[This message has been edited by Kingonads (edited 06-01-2001).]